Lithium/Alternator/Inverter Package from Xantrex

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Olbie

This brand, (I am hesitant to mention the brand as some here felt I was plugging the product)....

Don't worry. You are good.

You do understand, once in a while, we get a shill/spammer here who are eager to pitch a product. We can spot them after two or three posts because you can tell they are bluffing and they don't really know the product they are pitching; they only get paid to post.

[JohnnyFry]

To the contrary, I find it highly interesting, as I am sure many others do. Personally, as a retired electrical engineer I would love to do this on my RT, unfortunately finances preclude it. As such it is great to experience it vicariously through posts and discussion like yours.

[GeorgeB]

Interesting read! It's nice to hear about the latest trends in autonomous energy systems in Class Bs. With all the ongoing passionate discussions the Forum could easily publish a book titled "Zen and the art of Battery Management"!

What about the new 48 volts systems that seem to emerge in the auto industry?
Any updates on ARV's 48 volts Volta systems?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofCcnxJxzeE

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/48-volt-cars/

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...trical-systems

[GeorgeRa]

All interesting discussions but not yet embracing the whole aspect of energy source(s) for RV needs in my view. Batteries are still a limited energy storage for just some appliances. Batteries capable to provide for all RV energy needs for weeks of camping would become the energy source, until then it is just an energy buffer for some appliances. To be specific:

Space heating still needs a hydrocarbon fuel, LPG, diesel or gas. It makes no difference if you have 12V, 48V, 120V or 240V.

Water heating 1-2 days almost OK with electrical heating, for showers in multiples days hydrocarbon fuel is still necessary.

Cooking including coffee, precooked food, raw food, electrical energy is almost there, about $1K for a couple or a few days, $20K for a week or more. LPG dominates RV market and it will dominate for a while, rightfully so.

Powering electronic gadgets batteries were good for a while now. Certainly, Li batteries are capable of spinning electrons in a better way making your gadgets very happy.

We have 2 actual electrical energy sources:

Hydrocarbon – internal combustion generators like Onan or vehicle engine. Onan, nothing new – not even an inverter technology, or a second alternator, OK, I had one in my F350 20 years ago.

PV panels, that is new, reached prices as low as a W/$, MPPTs are common, the newest monocrystalline reaching 22% efficiency, yes, that is real development.

So, what will 48V can give an RV, less Cu for wires, better inverting efficiency with non-common inverters. But, 48V will make a difference for cars, just a different volume scale.

Until we have a reasonable cost batteries capable of heating an RV for weeks long camping it would be nice to have electrical energy source capable to convert hydrocarbon fuel to electrical energy worthy of the 21st Century.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

What about the new 48 volts systems that seem to emerge in the auto industry?
Any updates on ARV's 48 volts Volta systems?

Here's a followup to that video, Escape, the first 48 volt Advanced RV. Mike and Marcia Neundorfer took it on a trip from Cleveland to Florida and back this last January to put it through it's paces.

https://advanced-rv.com/rv-travels-f...m_medium=email

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

All interesting discussions but not yet embracing the whole aspect of energy source(s) for RV needs in my view. Batteries are still a limited energy storage for just some appliances. Batteries capable to provide for all RV energy needs for weeks of camping would become the energy source, until then it is just an energy buffer for some appliances....
...So, what will 48V can give an RV, less Cu for wires, better inverting efficiency with non-common inverters. But, 48V will make a difference for cars, just a different volume scale.
...it would be nice to have electrical energy source capable to convert hydrocarbon fuel to electrical energy worthy of the 21st Century.

I agree that 48V won't be a game changer for most of us. It seems that the second alternator is the most efficient part of the Volta system that ARV is installing.

It will take time for the automotive 48V standard (already installed in expensive SUVs) to trickle down to RV's. It is just interesting to see where the very limited R&D that's done in our RV niche industry is heading. Small steps for each of us, maybe eventually big ones for the industry. _Thanks Davydd for the update on ARV's Florida journey with the new system.

When we bought our camper in 2014 I promised myself that the next battery bank would be Lithium based. I'm puzzled to see that affordable and simple solutions are not yet available 4 years later.

Where we live winters are long and very cold. We store our beast in an unheated stable for the winter without access to electricity. Apart from finding an easy system for taking the batteries out of the rig I don't see myself being forced to keep the batteries warm for 6 month in the van _or being forced to interrupt a trip to warm up the batteries. I guess it will be AGM's again next time. When we are out in the open we don't have problems running all appliances and both of our fridges for weeks with our solar panels and the occasional drive to recharge the meager 190 Amps/hour bank. But when boondocking in dense forests or rainy weather I'm sometimes even thinking of buying a small and quiet portable generator. I doubt that it will be a lot faster to recharge than running the engine and what a mess to carry gas.

We are using most of the energy just to move our fossil-fuel driven vehicles, specially with the very mobile Class B customers. Tesla and VW are promising all electric vans by 2022 (see photo). It might make the driving part green but it won't solve the boon-docking capabilities and the battery anxiety will double. I agree that we are all searching for the ultimate solution of storing a lot of energy for our nomadic life. In the meantime we will adapt to the limitations of our rigs and enjoy our very privileged vanlife!

VW's electric microbus is coming in 2022



That's an all electric VW bus that charging with this huge solar tilted roof.



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[eric1514]

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

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Those panels are almost entirely in the shade.

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by eric1514

Those panels are almost entirely in the shade.

Yes I noticed that too.
But they look happy! Their batteries must be full!

[GeorgeRa]

Even in shade they still could be getting a couple of amps.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

I agree that 48V won't be a game changer for most of us. It seems that the generator is the most efficient part of the Volta system that ARV is installing.

Where we live winters are long and very cold. We store our beast in an unheated stable for the winter without access to electricity. Apart from finding an easy system for taking the batteries out of the rig I don't see myself being forced to keep the batteries warm for 6 month in the van _or being forced to interrupt a trip to warm up the batteries.

The Volta alternator is more efficient because more current can be delivered with smaller wires. My Delco alternator tops out at 330 amps and that is with a 4.0 wire (nearly 1/2" in diameter). That's considerably more than the Nations alternator every one else uses (and I initially had one) and now they say the Volta delivers twice than mine.

The Volta lithium batteries can withstand down to -40F. That's a big difference than mine and even in Minnesota there would be no worry to store them cold.

Their trip was interrupted because they admittedly didn't think they would need the electric heating pads on their trip in the battery box. I could have told them it would have been a three day trip to seek warmth as my initial trip to Arizona included an overnight stay of 0F in Gallup, NM. They got caught in an unusual cold spell in the south. Their production models will indeed include battery box heat as all their other vans have. Still it got down to 14F before they had a problem and that is pretty much my estimated experience. The battery box heating is about a maximum 10 amp draw per hour and that's when you get down in the teens. With a large lithium ion battery bank and driving it is not a burden.

But as Mike Neundorfer said in his video you don't think about electrical use or sacrificing electrical systems to part time and can use the van same as you own home. I stress that is a major difference affording you freedom as to where you stay. They never plugged into shore power despite the cold. It is not a refreshing, comforting concept to understand until you experience it.

I'm now more than 3 years in with my experience. That's 3 years not lost. I'm looking forward to better.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

…………………………The battery box heating is about a maximum 10 amp draw per hour and that's when you get down in the teens. With a large lithium ion battery bank and driving it is not a burden………………….

“10 amp per hour”, does it mean 10Ah/hour which is 240Ah /day? Which is about 3kWh at 12V per day or 12kWh at 48V per day. This could be a burden unless you just drive. Or it means 10Ah per day or a week....

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

“10 amp per hour”, does it mean 10Ah/hour which is 240Ah /day? Which is about 3kWh at 12V per day or 12kWh at 48V per day. This could be a burden unless you just drive. Or it means 10Ah per day or a week....

We sure do have trouble with the difference between amps and amp-hours here, don't we?

[nebulight]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The Volta lithium batteries can withstand down to -40F. That's a big difference than mine and even in Minnesota there would be no worry to store them cold.

Yea, I'm going to want to see long term data sheets on this one. The Volta packs are Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) so I'm not sure what they are doing differently to get an additional 36 degrees colder. As for using NMC, overcharging is a very large concern with this chemistry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZsqzAx-Svs

Yes, I know that's an extreme test and I'm sure they have failsafes with their BMS, but I'm not sure about that chemistry in the long run for other reasons. With the prices for lithium, most NMC batteries are only good for around 500 cycles vs lifepo4 for about 2-3000 cycles. That's the major draw of lfp batteries (and they make a good 12V battery). In normal conditions, you aren't cycling the battery that much with such a large bank, but if you are relying on heating pads to protect the batteries or running your AC in the summer, you are going to cycle those batteries a lot faster and wear them out quicker. So with only 500 cycles, I'm not sure I'd invest in NMC.

[booster]

This document says 2000 cycles from Volta

https://voltapowersystems.com/wp-con...1.8.17_WEB.pdf

It also has temps a lot warmer than -40*F. Perhaps ARV is talking about in use with heaters, not storage.

[BBQ]

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I read somewhere (forgotten where) that Mercedes Benz is putting 24v into some of their vehicles. I wasn't paying attention, so I don't have any detail. And I haven't found more info on it.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by nebulight

Yea, I'm going to want to see long term data sheets on this one. The Volta packs are Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) so I'm not sure what they are doing differently to get an additional 36 degrees colder. ...
Yes, I know that's an extreme test and I'm sure they have failsafes with their BMS, but I'm not sure about that chemistry in the long run for other reasons. With the prices for lithium, most NMC batteries are only good for around 500 cycles vs lifepo4 for about 2-3000 cycles. That's the major draw of lfp batteries (and they make a good 12V battery). In normal conditions, you aren't cycling the battery that much with such a large bank, but if you are relying on heating pads to protect the batteries or running your AC in the summer, you are going to cycle those batteries a lot faster and wear them out quicker. So with only 500 cycles, I'm not sure I'd invest in NMC.

That YouTuber is using a Lithium NMC Polymer cell. Not sure that is the same as the Automotive Grade NMC that Volta is using.

This article says Tesla is using NMC cells for their stationary energy storage products, like the Powerwall and Powerpack.
https://electrek.co/2017/05/04/tesla...stry-lifcycle/

Battery University indicates NMC chemistry is good for energy and power cells with cycle life of 1000-2000. They also say a blend of Li-manganese with lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) improves specific energy and prolongs the life span. The LMO (NMC) is chosen for most electric vehicles, such as the Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt and BMW i3. Perhaps this is more like what Volta is using.

Types of Lithium-ion Batteries – Battery University

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by booster

This document says 2000 cycles from Volta

https://voltapowersystems.com/wp-con...1.8.17_WEB.pdf

It also has temps a lot warmer than -40*F. Perhaps ARV is talking about in use with heaters, not storage.

This Volta battery pack flyer has same "Storage Temp: -20° C for 3 months". But also mentions a Minimum Storage Temp: -40° C.

https://voltapowersystems.com/wp-con...et_1.23.18.pdf

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The Volta alternator is more efficient because more current can be delivered with smaller wires. ...
...Their production models will indeed include battery box heat as all their other vans have. ...With a large lithium ion battery bank and driving it is not a burden.

I really appreciate ARV's ongoing research to try out all the new available systems. They are in a privileged position because their business model allows for very expensive custom builds with clients that want only the best. My other favorite is Fit RV's "research lab" who are doing constant testing of new systems, upgrading the equipments and performance of their sponsored 59GX Travato. (I still don't understand how they are sharing that tiny platform bed )

Before dreaming about efficient and affordable Lithiums, the underhood generator (like the Fit RV mod) would definitely be my next upgrade if the installation in a Promaster would not limit the front clearance (photo). I often park with the front barely scratching the curb.

I haven't seen the detailed specs of the new Sprinter concerning the second alternator option but I've also read somewhere that they eventually wanted to upgrade the voltage. Maybe it was only related to their secondary circuits of their all electric van, but that won't happen on this side of the pond! Looking forward to hear about the NA gas Sprinter. I tried out building a 2019 Sprinter on the german website. Lots of interesting options like OEM electric assisted sliding door. We should definitely start a new thread for all the exciting specs of that new van.

The EV Sprinter
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2...r-van-preview/

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Limited front clearance with the second alternator installed on Fit RV's Promaster



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[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by GeorgeB

... I haven't seen the detailed specs of the new Sprinter concerning the second alternator option but I've also read somewhere that they eventually wanted to upgrade the voltage. ...
Looking forward to hear about the NA gas Sprinter.
...

The new Sprinter will have same 2.1L 4-cylinder and 3.0L V-6 diesels. So the second alternator mountings should be the same. The NA gas engine will be a 2.4L 4-cylinder used on other Mercedes vehicles, but no details were offered on the performance specs. No mention of going to a 48V mild-hybrid system. But the really good news is they are dropping that old NAG-1, 5-speed automatics transmission for a newer 9G-Tronic, 9-speed automatic.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by booster

This document says 2000 cycles from Volta

https://voltapowersystems.com/wp-con...1.8.17_WEB.pdf

It also has temps a lot warmer than -40*F. Perhaps ARV is talking about in use with heaters, not storage.

Yes heaters for sure. This high end Volta system (LEVEL 3: OFF THE GRID)
says heaters for -30C operation. Probably what ARV is using.

https://voltapowersystems.com/wp-con...1.8.17_WEB.pdf