Lithium/Alternator/Inverter Package from Xantrex

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Since I got the first build of Advanced RV's Lithium Ion 800ah battery design exactly 3 years ago, I can tell you it has performed well with no noticeable drop off after 58,000 miles of RVing. I've enjoyed what no one else has contributing on this thread has for the past three years, not the future. And it has been in extreme Minnesota cold weather.

Has anyone else traveled a whole week in weather mostly under 20F 24/7 and camped in overnight temperatures of mostly 0 to 5 degrees F. without shore power? Did so three years ago the first week I had the B from Cleveland to Minnesota to Arizona all the way to Albuquerque, NM at a Cracker Barrel when it was 0 degrees F. overnight.

That's not conjecture, speculation, opinion or you don't know. I know what I know. That's fact. I've enjoyed the technology for THREE YEARS.

Yes the technology is here and now.

Yes we know you have it.

But your rig is not a run-of-the-mill RV.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, has a workable winter-ready lithium set up that is remotely close to what you have -- not RT, not PW, nobody.

[Phoebe3]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

This is a terrific option but the cost needs to come down to earth.

You overlooked something that's easy to miss. Yes, the Li3 option shows as $21,600 on the order form but what doesn't jump out at you is that the Li3 option results in the deletion of the 2000w inverter, the 300ah 8D Relion AGM, the Gen start module and Autostart, all of which is included in the required Electronics Pkg. plus the deletion of the Onan 2.5kw LP generator included in the required Convenience Pkg. Since you get no credit for these deletions, the actual Li3 premium is closer to $26,000-$27,000 which IMO is exorbitant

Retail for the Nations alternator + Balmar regulator is about $1200. The Lithionics 600ah battery + BMS retails for about $8,000. The Xantrex 3000w inverter and system control panel is about $2,500. Throw in $300 for copper etc and you're looking at a total of around $12,000.

I think I hear you saying that one would pay $12,000 plus labor, correct?

I think the typical experience for purchasing coaches is that you can knock an average of 25% off the list price, so if your estimate of the list cost is correct ($26K-$27K), the final amount paid by the purchaser would be a little less than $20K.

What would the labor costs be if you paid someone to install the system you suggested?

[booster]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Yes the technology is here and now.

Yes we know you have it.

But your rig is not a run-of-the-mill RV.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, has a workable winter-ready lithium set up that is remotely close to what you have -- not RT, not PW, nobody.

But even the ARV has an issue with cold weather and can't sit unattended outside in Minnesota for extended times like on a storage lot. Surviving in use is one thing, surviving all the time is something totally different and seems to be much more difficult.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

I think I hear you saying that one would pay $12,000 plus labor, correct?

I think the typical experience for purchasing coaches is that you can knock an average of 25% off the list price, so if your estimate of the list cost is correct ($26K-$27K), the final amount paid by the purchaser would be a little less than $20K.

What would the labor costs be if you paid someone to install the system you suggested?

I agree. That kind of markup is typical of ANY feature added to an RV by an upfitter. You can ALWAYS do much better on your own, assuming you don't place a value on your own time or effort.

[BBQ]

.

A good portion of the price is allocated to warranty reserve.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by booster

But even the ARV has an issue with cold weather and can't sit unattended outside in Minnesota for extended times like on a storage lot. Surviving in use is one thing, surviving all the time is something totally different and seems to be much more difficult.

My ARV Class B Sprinter sat outside for two full winters in Minnesota. It may have sat outside again this winter but I moved to an HOA townhouse that 1) would not allow it and 2) even if they did there was no place to park it. So, I bought a remote condo development heated garage where I can work on it in the winter only I don't have any necessary projects.

Then


Now

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Davydd

My ARV Class B Sprinter sat outside for two full winters in Minnesota. It may have sat outside again this winter but I moved to an HOA townhouse that 1) would not allow it and 2) even if they did there was no place to park it. So, I bought a remote condo development heated garage where I can work on it in the winter only I don't have any necessary projects.

Then

Sure it sat outside...

the point is, it is hooked up to shore. The battery needs constant power feed to stay alive. Otherwise, it will freeze itself to death.

[booster]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Sure it sat outside...

the point is, it is hooked up to shore. The battery needs constant power feed to stay alive. Otherwise, it will freeze itself to death.

Exactly, but of course ARV vans can't have shortcomings.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Sure it sat outside...

the point is, it is hooked up to shore. The battery needs constant power feed to stay alive. Otherwise, it will freeze itself to death.

That's all you got? If you lived in Minnesota you would be prudent to leave any RV plugged in outside. I did so with my Great West Van and Pleasure-way.

Originally Posted by booster

Exactly, but of course ARV vans can't have shortcomings.

Says the man in Minnesota who has enjoyed a heated garage.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

If you lived in Minnesota you would be prudent to leave any RV plugged in outside.

Why is that?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

That's all you got? If you lived in Minnesota you would be prudent to leave any RV plugged in outside. I did so with my Great West Van and Pleasure-way.



Says the man in Minnesota who has enjoyed a heated garage.

Yep, I do have a heated garage, which is very nice to have, but I also am willing to look at things objectively to point out things that may affect the folks who aren't as lucky as I am, and need to store their RV in an offsite storage facility that doesn't have power available. Just saying that it is a good idea to have your RV plugged in doesn't mean that everyone can do that.

You live around here, so you must must certainly have noticed the dozens of not hundreds of of RVs in the unheated storage lots, and you can bet there are just as many in the unheated pole barn storage places.

If it were really true, as implied, that the ARV does not have temp handling issues, I seriously doubt that it would have been deemed necessary for it to have it's own condo.

ARV vans are wonderful, no doubt, but they have the same rules for temps as everyone else, and I don't think anyone knows how to keep a lithium battery bank warm for the entire winter without some kind of power connection.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

I think I hear you saying that one would pay $12,000 plus labor, correct?

I think the typical experience for purchasing coaches is that you can knock an average of 25% off the list price, so if your estimate of the list cost is correct ($26K-$27K), the final amount paid by the purchaser would be a little less than $20K.

What would the labor costs be if you paid someone to install the system you suggested?

Yes, I think you should be able to get this option for $12,000. The factory of course is paying substantially less for this hardware. I didn't add a labor component for the Li3 setup because a standard Galleria now includes the factory labor component involved in installing a 300ah 8D AGM,plus a 2000w inverter and hardwired control panel which is all deleted with the lithium option. So I think the factory labor cost for alternative Li3 option is pretty much a wash.

I think the labor cost for an equivalent retrofit is project specific. If you are starting from scratch with an unconverted van you don't have to deal with undoing or removing anything. On a converted B it get more complicated and expensive as it probably involves welding support and opening up the interior to run AC lines to receptacles. Fortunately, most Bs today include an inverter and the associated wiring and receptacles which helps avoiding tearing up the interior for the retrofit.

I have a lot of respect for forum members that have engaged in projects like this and the photos they provide for their work shows astonishing talent and ingenuity. Unfortunately I'm largely bereft of both and would be more likely to leave it to a professional installer or bite the bullet and pay through the nose for the OEM option.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

Yep, I do have a heated garage, which is very nice to have, but I also am willing to look at things objectively to point out things that may affect the folks who aren't as lucky as I am, and need to store their RV in an offsite storage facility that doesn't have power available. Just saying that it is a good idea to have your RV plugged in doesn't mean that everyone can do that.

You live around here, so you must must certainly have noticed the dozens of not hundreds of of RVs in the unheated storage lots, and you can bet there are just as many in the unheated pole barn storage places.

If it were really true, as implied, that the ARV does not have temp handling issues, I seriously doubt that it would have been deemed necessary for it to have it's own condo.

ARV vans are wonderful, no doubt, but they have the same rules for temps as everyone else, and I don't think anyone knows how to keep a lithium battery bank warm for the entire winter without some kind of power connection.

Although I don't think it was part of their design plan, the Galleria Li3 battery layout could turn out to be a real plus in this regard. It isn't imprisoned under the chassis which would involve a major PITA for seasonal removal. It's located under the rear power sofa and easily accessible and presumably removable via the rear door. It's a 600ah brick and pretty heavy but isn't that why God made husky teenagers?

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Although I don't think it was part of their design plan, the Galleria Li3 battery layout could turn out to be a real plus in this regard. It isn't imprisoned under the chassis which would involve a major PITA for seasonal removal. It's located under the rear power sofa and easily accessible and presumably removable via the rear door. It's a 600ah brick and pretty heavy but isn't that why God made husky teenagers?

It think the Pleasure-way lithium setups are still similar. The last we saw they had two batteries under the sofa in the rear and they looked moderately easy to remove.

I think that if you are in a situation that requires cold storage, it may be the only option you have is to remove the lithium batteries, and that would definitely be needed to be part of the buying specs criteria.

[nebulight]

Guys, guys, guys....simple solution to this problem. Don't live anywhere where it gets that cold. Problem solved.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by booster

Yep, I do have a heated garage, which is very nice to have, but I also am willing to look at things objectively to point out things that may affect the folks who aren't as lucky as I am, and need to store their RV in an offsite storage facility that doesn't have power available. Just saying that it is a good idea to have your RV plugged in doesn't mean that everyone can do that.

You live around here, so you must must certainly have noticed the dozens of not hundreds of of RVs in the unheated storage lots, and you can bet there are just as many in the unheated pole barn storage places.

If it were really true, as implied, that the ARV does not have temp handling issues, I seriously doubt that it would have been deemed necessary for it to have it's own condo.

ARV vans are wonderful, no doubt, but they have the same rules for temps as everyone else, and I don't think anyone knows how to keep a lithium battery bank warm for the entire winter without some kind of power connection.

Oh for cripe's sake! Minnesota is unusual. Most of the USA can store a lithium ion RV outside with no shore power. Apparently even in Willoughby, OH home of Advanced RV. You're moaning because someone in a pole barn does not plug in? The technology is not going away. Roadtrek, Pleasure-way, and now Coachmen have embraced it. A 15 amp electrical source is all that is required for your onerous Chicken Little sky is falling "temp handling issue." I'm a minimum of three years ahead of you on this technology and have enjoyed the freedom it provides in traveling that you have apparently failed to grasp.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by nebulight

Guys, guys, guys....simple solution to this problem. Don't live anywhere where it gets that cold. Problem solved.

+1

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Oh for cripe's sake! Minnesota is unusual. Most of the USA can store a lithium ion RV outside with no shore power. Apparently even in Willoughby, OH home of Advanced RV. You're moaning because someone in a pole barn does not plug in? The technology is not going away. Roadtrek, Pleasure-way, and now Coachmen have embraced it. A 15 amp electrical source is all that is required for your onerous Chicken Little sky is falling "temp handling issue." I'm a minimum of three years ahead of you on this technology and have enjoyed the freedom it provides in traveling that you have apparently failed to grasp.

Whatever, I guess I would rather let folks know of POTENTIAL issues rather than tell them all is rosy and perfect, when it may not be, and have them make an error,. It just seems a lot more honest to do it that way and let them make the choice.


When you bought the heated condo you distinctly stated it was because the ARV couldn't sit outside without a plug in, but I guess that wouldn't apply to anyone else, right?

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

It think the Pleasure-way lithium setups are still similar. The last we saw they had two batteries under the sofa in the rear and they looked moderately easy to remove.

I think that if you are in a situation that requires cold storage, it may be the only option you have is to remove the lithium batteries, and that would definitely be needed to be part of the buying specs criteria.

Yes, the PW lithiums are inside and comprise two 100ah modules which weight wise shouldn't be difficult to remove. But that said, considering the temperature issues with a fairly meager lithium 200ah capacity, if I was given the option, I would opt for 300 - 400ah of AGMs which would make charging and discharging temperature concerns moot and at a substantially lower cost.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Yes, the PW lithiums are inside and comprise two 100ah modules which weight wise shouldn't be difficult to remove. But that said, considering the temperature issues with a fairly meager lithium 200ah capacity, if I was given the option, I would opt for 300 - 400ah of AGMs which would make charging and discharging temperature concerns moot and at a substantially lower cost.

I think that is a very logical thing to do, especially since the batteries could then go underneath and out of the van.