Lithium/Alternator/Inverter Package from Xantrex

[booster]

I think angelroman has every right to try to keep his thread civil and on topic as it has veered badly off the original topic and gotten very uncivil. I can't really speak for him about the drift to the Volta system when the original post was about Xantrex, but at least they are similar in function. Interesting to some of us, but probably in the wrong place as he was looking at a specific product in his original question. There are several other threads about Volta also.

It is also good, IMO, the angelroman came back in and discussed what system he finally settled on for his van, as it is another data point for all of us. We know from past posts that he collected plenty of information before weighing it all and making his decision based on what was right for him and his application. It will be interesting for all of us to see the results over time, if he is willing to keep us up to date. Being a full timer, he will be getting results much, much, quicker than most of the rest of us.

Angelroman's experience is similar to quite few others we have seen over the years on the board. Questions, information collecting, gathering opinions, etc and then a final decision of which way to go with whatever the project is. Nearly all have been very successful and we all have learned from them and the followup of them. The decisions, not surprisingly, have gone the full range of the options in the area of batteries and charging systems, based on all the factors involved. Some have chosen to use lower cost wet cells and basic chargers, some AGM and into their stock van, some have done charging system upgrades with a battery upgrade (as angelroman did), some have built lithium systems, some have bought lithium systems. It is extremely rare that anyone comes back and wishes they had done things differently. All systems and products have pluses and minuses, and I think the fact that everyone knew what they were based on the information gathering made for less surprises and higher satisfaction levels.

The breadth and shear quantity of the projects that have gotten done over the years, and shared here, make this the best class b forum around IMO. The experience and knowledge base are much more to the tech side than other forums.

[angelmroman]

“The breadth and shear quantity of the projects that have gotten done over the years, and shared here, make this the best class b forum around IMO. The experience and knowledge base are much more to the tech side than other forums”

Well said, booster.

I will add that reading about the Xantrex “Package” inspired me to piece together my own “”Package” and follow through with the installation. I would REALLY like to read what other Members have done to their B’s. Did you add Batteries, Panels, larger Inverters, 2nd Alternators? Those of you who purchased new/used B’s with this Equipment already installed, have they preformed as advertised? Please share your experiences

[avanti]

Moderator's note:

I have just deleted 33 posts from this thread. I tried to leave everything with non-redundant content, but erred on the side of removing everything containing or responding to personal attacks. My apologies if my editing was not perfect.

Out of respect to OP, I am not locking the thread at this point. I will, however, continue to delete anything that continues the tone or content of the deleted messages.

[angelmroman]

Thank you, avanti.

I also echo booster’s thoughts. In my 6+ years on this Forum, I have enjoyed reading the quantity, the QUALITY of knowledge and shared experiences of the Members of this Forum. Yes, the last few days have been disappointing at the complete loss of Decorum and Respect that I have come to EXPECT from this Forum. We certainly have moved past that.

Looking forward to reading more invaluable contributions from our fellow Members.

Thanks again for all your past contributions

[angelmroman]

This is an edited version of yesterday’s Post. I’m hoping this triggers a healthy discussion on similar projects or add-ons......

I’ve been Full-timing in my 2005 RT 210P for 3+ years on just two wet cell batteries. 210AHs. So, basically just 100AHs of daily usable capacity. Moving around every day kept them charged. I visited family and friends around the Country, plugging in on their driveways, fully charging the batteries when I could....

Last fall, I was seriously considering buying a new B. In my research, I came across the Xantrex Package being offered on the Coachmen Galleria, the Genesis of this Thread. Yes, it was pricy at $21,800 MSRP, but I immediately realized what having something like that would do for the way I used and traveled in the 210. So, I finally got off the fence and installed this “Package” last month.....

A weekend project on my buddies driveway (He has a complete Tool Shop in the Garage), we installed 4 six-volt AGMs totaling 448AHs. 400 Watts of Solar Panels (Fully tilt-able from either side), with a Renogy 40 Amp MPPT Controller. A 2000 Watt Inverter/Charger with a Tripp-Lite Remote Monitor. Very, very pleased with the performance. Even in the low Winter Sun, Batteries are full by late morning. No longer do I have to fire-up the Generator to make coffee, use the Convection Oven, hairdryer, etc. No longer do I have to monitor the SOC of the Batteries. Instead of using the NOISY Suburban Furnace, I can now use the little Ceramic Heater simply by turning on the Inverter. All for under $3K. The $100K+ that I would’ve spent on a new B now stays in the gasoline column, meaning LOTS of miles and memories ahead of us....

Thank you wincrasher and booster for your advice

[Phoebe3]

Originally Posted by angelmroman

... In my research, I came across the Xantrex Package being offered on the Coachmen Galleria, the Genesis of this Thread. Yes, it was pricy at $21,800 MSRP, but I immediately realized what having something like that would do for the way I used and traveled in the 210. So, I finally got off the fence and installed this “Package” last month.....

A weekend project on my buddies driveway (He has a complete Tool Shop in the Garage), we installed 4 six-volt AGMs totaling 448AHs. 400 Watts of Solar Panels (Fully tilt-able from either side), with a Renogy 40 Amp MPPT Controller. A 2000 Watt Inverter/Charger with a Tripp-Lite Remote Monitor. Very, very pleased with the performance. Even in the low Winter Sun, Batteries are full by late morning. ... All for under $3K. The $100K+ that I would’ve spent on a new B now stays in the gasoline column, meaning LOTS of miles and memories ahead of us....

So you looked at the Xantrex package and decided on AGMs instead, correct (or does Xantrex also sell an AGM system)?

Why did you install four 6V AGMS instead of four 12V AGMs?

[Olbie]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

So you looked at the Xantrex package and decided on AGMs instead, correct (or does Xantrex also sell an AGM system)?

Why did you install four 6V AGMS instead of four 12V AGMs?

Xantrex doesn't actually sell batteries, they just sell the inverter/converter.

[angelmroman]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

So you looked at the Xantrex package and decided on AGMs instead, correct (or does Xantrex also sell an AGM system)?

Why did you install four 6V AGMS instead of four 12V AGMs?

Hey Phoebe3

The Xantrex “Package” also includes a 2nd Alternator. I simply chose to install Solar instead.

Based on my research, four 6v AGMs have more total AHs than four 12V AGMs (Same Brand, Same Size). I wasn’t interested in Lithium.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Olbie

Xantrex doesn't actually sell batteries, they just sell the inverter/converter.

Technically, you're right, Xantrex doesn't sell batteries. But it's more complicated than that. As a DIY.you certainly can buy a Xantrex inverter/converter and use it with any batteries you want. But when their equipment is used by an upfitter as part of a complete charging system involving lithium batteries, (e.g the Galleria Li3). Xantrex is in partnership with Lithionics and there is no option provided for different batteries.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Technically, you're right, Xantrex doesn't sell batteries. But it's more complicated than that. As a DIY.you certainly can buy a Xantrex inverter/converter and use it with any batteries you want. But when their equipment is used by an upfitter as part of a complete charging system involving lithium batteries, (e.g the Galleria Li3). Xantrex is in partnership with Lithionics and there is no option provided for different batteries.

I think that partnering is a major point in making the system desirable to many people as it puts all the responsibility in one place for proper function and durability. As the systems get more complex because of batteries that require more and tighter controls, I think you are going to see a lot more of the "system in a box type" power systems.

[Olbie]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Technically, you're right, Xantrex doesn't sell batteries. But it's more complicated than that. As a DIY.you certainly can buy a Xantrex inverter/converter and use it with any batteries you want. But when their equipment is used by an upfitter as part of a complete charging system involving lithium batteries, (e.g the Galleria Li3). Xantrex is in partnership with Lithionics and there is no option provided for different batteries.

Yes, we bought our Xantrex SW 3012 through Lithionics as a package that included the battery. That way they would take care of all the fine tuning of charging parameters for me and make the proper length cables. They don't sell the aux alternator but did tell me that Nations sells the alternator directly with a voltage regulator set up for Lithionics lithium batteries.

[angelmroman]

Hey Olbie.

How wide a range of Battery AHs were available to you? Say, 100 AHs through 600 AHs or more? How many AHs did you decide to get?

Thanks

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by angelmroman

Hey Olbie.

How wide a range of Battery AHs were available to you? Say, 100 AHs through 600 AHs or more?

Thanks

If you're just buying batteries, Lithionics will build you any ah capacity you want and can provide it in different package profiles to make your installation easier. You can choose whether to integrate the BMS with the batteries or have it in a separate module. Since their batteries are rated for a full 90% + DOD they consider the ah sweet spot to be 600ah for roof AC support.

But if you are ordering a system that includes an inverter like the Xantrex 3012 which will pump out as much as 3kw of AC, I'm pretty sure they are going to insist on a minimum battery capacity that will support the AC power output levels the customer intends to demand from the Xantres inverter.

I talked with Lithionics a couple of times and they were incredibly generous with their time and information. A truly great company to do business with.

[GeorgeB]

In the fascinating ongoing debate about battery systems I've started a new thread (so as not to digress of the actual discussion) on a new hybrid AGM/Lithium combo Hymer is now offering in Europe.

Is it combining the best of both technologies or simply making it more complicated with limited benefits?

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5...html#post67777

[Olbie]

Originally Posted by angelmroman

Hey Olbie.

How wide a range of Battery AHs were available to you? Say, 100 AHs through 600 AHs or more? How many AHs did you decide to get?

Thanks

Angelroman, there is an incredibly wide range of amp hours and sizes, (or shapes) available. If I remember correctly they offer batteries from around 75 amp hours to 1200. They also make plug and play units with external BMS that allows stackable sets of batteries.

They didn't tell me how many amp hours I needed to make my system work, I decided that myself. After though I had calculated roughly how many amp hours I needed to meet my needs, I then figured out how many I could readily fit size wise. That landed me at a single 600 amp hour battery.

[angelmroman]

Thank you cruising7388 and Olbie for providing such detailed answers to my questions and sharing your experiences in working with Lithionics

[Technomadness]

By the way:

Lithium battery with •operating• temp range from -30 Celsius to 55 degrees Celsius:

http://www.a123systems.com/automotiv...arter-battery/


These operate from -30 up to 65 degrees:
http://www.a123systems.com/automotiv...s/48v-battery/

[booster]

Interesting-another data point in the puzzle. They don't say anything about charging that I could see, just operating and storing.

[Davydd]

No mention of BMS either. Ultraphosphate(tm) does not tell you much. There are many lithium ion battery chemistries but they don't tell you.

The -30 C operating temperature and -40 C storage temperatures I think are the same as the Volta Power System's. They still require above freezing charging temperatures.

"I'm not going to try it. Let's get Mikey to try it."

[nebulight]

Originally Posted by Davydd

No mention of BMS either. Ultraphosphate(tm) does not tell you much. There are many lithium ion battery chemistries but they don't tell you.

The -30 C operating temperature and -40 C storage temperatures I think are the same as the Volta Power System's. They still require above freezing charging temperatures.

"I'm not going to try it. Let's get Mikey to try it."

Unless they came up with an entirely new chemistry, this is lifepo4 as the voltage is 13.2v. However this is A123 so it's possible. They are also the champs when it comes to lifepo4 cells. They could have changed the electrolyte to better handle freezing temps.