Is diesel dead?

[VanFan]

Originally Posted by avanti

I hope you realize that I am a diesel owner, too. My Sprinter 3500's OM651 I4 engine with its 7-speed transmission is one of the most amazing powertrains that I have ever driven. But, there is simply no denying that modern Sprinters are horribly unreliable vehicles...

In the spirit of full disclosure, when I chose the gas ProMaster I was very sorry not to have access to many of the fabulous options available on current model Sprinters. Having owned a couple of Mercedes vehicles over the years I know if there's one thing they're very good at, it's the bells and whistles.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by avanti

Because most of the market isn't quite as sensitive to nuance as folks around here. That incident was the death knell of diesel in the US.


I hope you realize that I am a diesel owner, too. My Sprinter 3500's OM651 I4 engine with its 7-speed transmission is one of the most amazing powertrains that I have ever driven. I truly love it, when it is working. And, I have an excellent dealer that takes good care of me.

But, there is simply no denying that modern Sprinters are horribly unreliable vehicles, due almost entirely to the BlueTec system. I can no longer plan a trip without thinking about where I am going to head if I have yet another emissions failure. That is no way for an RV'r to live. And, the problem is not limited to Mercedes, since all the OEMs depend on basically the same tech. (The problem is exacerbated with MB, though, due to the limited dealer network and the expense of out-of-warranty repairs). Even if things get better, these stories are out there and they are bound to poison the market for diesel if there are any reasonable alternative, and, as we have discussed, the technology gap between gas and diesel has narrowed so dramatically in recent years that any remaining advantages of diesel are de minimis.

Moreover, I do not believe that things will get better. The fate of diesel in the US is clear to the OEMs. Mercedes didn't even bother to offer the I4 this year (despite its popularity) because they didn't see it as worth the cost of emissions certification. The R&D dollars are all going into EVs and gas-fueled hybrids.

Diesel is dead.

First, thanks for clarifying this.... I love driving the Sprinter and agree with you that it's great when it's working...I've had a few issues....it happens...it's a vehicle.

SO... you truly believe that??

What about all the commercial diesel trucks on the road today??
And, the large diesel pushers ...35 feet and larger Class A's....

Diesel is definitely not dead...and it's not going away.....

Probably going away on cars?? And, I'm not totally sure about that either...you can go out today and purchase a diesel car...Chevy Cruze..and some other makes....niche market...

And, I've heard some great things about the 2.1 FOUR cylinder diesel engine......and the 7 speed transmission....

I understand that all new 2019 Sprinters will have the 7 speed...

Maybe you should put in an order for a gasoline version Sprinter as they're coming to the United States......

I honestly don't know how they will be.. probably a little less powerful....??
It's an awfully heavy vehicle especially with the dual wheels....

Sure, anything can happen..and we had an issue on our USA trip.. fortunately, I was pretty close to a Mercedes Benz dealership...

Otherwise, it's always good to keep the AAA card handy... I have AAA Premiere....200 miles towing....

It's all an adventure..if you think for one minute that you will never be in a situation where your vehicle does not fail.... better not to leave the house....or take an airplane to your destination and rent a car.....

On a per passenger miles basis.... nothing is safer and more reliable than air travel....

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

SO... you truly believe that??

Yes. There will be a long tail, but just watch.





https://www.tesla.com/semi

And, I most certainly DO expect to be in a situation where my vehicle does not fail. None of my Toyotas has left me stranded in decades. My 2015 Sienna has nearly 160K miles. In that time, I have replaced a small section of exhaust pipe and one non-critical O2 sensor. Never, ever a trip-interrupting event. THAT is what people expect these days. They are never going to get it from a BlueTec engine.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

Are you just saying that or do you have proof?

YES, VW definitely cheated...and that was horrible....

MERCEDES used a completely different system for their vehicles....

I don't know how you can say this without any hard evidence...

You did notice I said possible and didn't mention any specific manufacturers, I hope.


Do a search on diesel emissions cheating and read up, there are many articles out there on it, that address many of the different manufacturers. It is highly unlikely that one or two manufacturers managed to get within the limits while holding performance, when other would emit something like 40X the limits (I think that what VW was when not on test). The engineers all are part of mobile workforce, so there are very few secrets out there. If anyone was not cheating and knew of others that were, we would have heard about it very early as they do competitive testing all the time. The silence says more about it than the chatter, in this case, I think.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by booster

You did notice I said possible and didn't mention any specific manufacturers, I hope.


Do a search on diesel emissions cheating and read up, there are many articles out there on it, that address many of the different manufacturers. It is highly unlikely that one or two manufacturers managed to get within the limits while holding performance, when other would emit something like 40X the limits (I think that what VW was when not on test). The engineers all are part of mobile workforce, so there are very few secrets out there. If anyone was not cheating and knew of others that were, we would have heard about it very early as they do competitive testing all the time. The silence says more about it than the chatter, in this case, I think.

These are all "your hairs on fire".. stories....
Provide actual evidence and I'll pay attention to it.... otherwise, drop it.

It's nothing if you can't prove it.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

These are all "your hairs on fire".. stories....
Provide actual evidence and I'll pay attention to it.... otherwise, drop it.

It's nothing if you can't prove it.

Whether or not you pay attention to it is assuredly your call. But insisting that the subject be dropped crosses the chutzpah threshold.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Whether or not you pay attention to it is assuredly your call. But insisting that the subject be dropped crosses the chutzpah threshold.

I don't recall when Mr booster needed to drop it, including now.

Bud

[booster]

That is typical internet arguing tactic, just keep insisting on ironclad proof, and when any proof is given say it isn't good enough. Nothing to even address because it would never be enough. If he takes the time to do a little research he will find the same type of information himself.



I do wonder how he leaped from

From what we have heard lately, it is very possible nearly all the diesel manufacturers were doing the same thing,

to there being some kind indictment of Mercedes, or his van. It certainly isn't in the statement.



The point is pretty obvious that if indeed there were multiple cheaters it will certainly help to put a nail in the diesel coffin in the U.S., as it would no longer be a VW only issue.

[Boxster1971]

Best selling vehicles in USA are actually getting more diesels.

2018 Ford F-150 Adds Its First Diesel:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/20...sel-power-news

The 2019 Chevy Silverado 1500 Is Getting A Diesel:
https://jalopnik.com/2019-chevy-silv...sel-1822054268

New diesel offerings, 2018/2019 model years:
- GM’s 2019 Silverado pickup: 3.0L I-6 diesel option among six powertrain choices
- Ford’s 2018 F-150 pickup: 3.0L V-6 PowerStroke diesel option among six powertrain choices
- Fiat Chrysler’s 2019 Ram 1500 pickup: 3.0L diesel option among five powertrain options
- Chevy’s 2018 Equinox crossover: 1.6L turbo-diesel option among three powertrain choices
- Chevy’s 2018 Cruze and Cruze Hatch compact sedans: 1.6L diesel option among three powertrain choices
- Jeep’s 2019 Wrangler compact SUV: 3.0L V-6 EcoDiesel option among three powertrain choices
- BMW’s 2018 540d sedan: diesel xDrive option among six powertrain choices
- Kia Sorento crossover: diesel option coming soon

https://www.dieselforum.org/news/diesels-pickup-new-life-in-detroit

[booster]

I think MOST everyone here has seen or heard of this stuff, but a couple of reference articles on emissions cheating.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...-AjBXkXQbGWMNT


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...EGRF-2CKANH85G

[BBQ]

.

Do you still need diesel?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVr9V72xurA

[jon]

I want one. It's not an ecoboost.. It's a chevoboost right?

Sent from my LG-TP450 using Tapatalk

[avanti]

Great video. Well worth watching.

I honestly think that people just don't realize the level of sophistication of the latest gas engines. I have mentioned several times the implications of direct injection, modern turbos and many-speed transmissions. But there is a lot more going on.
Examples:

--Turbo pressures have been limited in the past by something called "super knock" which is a severe kind of knock that is caused by a kind of diesel-like ignition prior to the spark-plug firing. It was only recently figured out in detail and is being tamed by very sophisticated tweaks to the combustion chamber, etc.

--The current Volvo T6 4-cylinder engines have both turbos and superchargers, which easily eliminates turbo lag.

--Infiniti is shipping their new VC-T engine. The "VC" stands for variable compression. This engine can actually dynamically alter its compression ratio between 8:1 up to 14:1.

The World's-First Variable Compression Ratio Engine Could Kill Diesel Forever

Here is our friend from "Engineering Explained" again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kV2ApRM_Pi8

These are not incremental improvements. We are seeing NOTHING like this from the diesel world.

[Bud]

So maybe the question is:

2 different class b rv's, identical except for the engine/transmission.

Why would someone choose the 6 cylinder sprinter over the 'present' ford ecoboost?

Bud

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Bud

So maybe the question is:

2 different class b rv's, identical except for the engine/transmission.

Why would someone choose the 6 cylinder sprinter over the 'present' ford ecoboost?

Bud

I think it all depends on whether the "someone" has ever lived with a BlueTec engine for any length of time. Many people will start with the bias that "Mercedes is the best".

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Bud

So maybe the question is:

2 different class b rv's, identical except for the engine/transmission.

Why would someone choose the 6 cylinder sprinter over the 'present' ford ecoboost?

Bud

Well... the Ford ecoboost is a fantastic engine, but it is not perfect.

None of the Ford products are perfect.

If you search the internet, you will find many sorry stories of ecoboost troubles. To give them credit, they do have improved and refined over the years. I hope the current iteration is more reliable then the previous gens.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Well... the Ford ecoboost is a fantastic engine, but it is not perfect.

None of the Ford products are perfect.

If you search the internet, you will find many sorry stories of ecoboost troubles. To give them credit, they do have improved and refined over the years. I hope the current iteration is more reliable then the previous gens.

Yes, I did mean present ecoboost in the Transit vs sprinter

Bud

[Bud]

"I think it all depends on whether the "someone" has ever lived with a BlueTec engine for any length of time."

There are some sprinter fleet managers that have done that.

Bud

[booster]

There is no doubt there have been some growing pains with the Ecoboost, with a lot of it being heat related, I think. It is relatively easy to generate more power, but it can get quite difficult to get all the waste heat out of the engine and then out of the vehicle, especially in a van.


Gas turbo truck style engines are a relatively new breed, as turbo applications have more typically been acceleration boosts of short duration designs. Heat is of much less an issue in them, as is continuous load durability of the parts, plus they want the to be light. I think it will take some time to get where they can keep them cool at full output for extended times, but I certainly think they will get there. The likely could do it already, but not at a cost and weight that would be competitive.


I think what Avanti was referring to as a limiting factor as "super knock" is what we always referred to as "detonation" when I was building turbo stuff. It is basically as he said, a gas engine running as a diesel with all the fuel igniting at once at the wrong time. It is different from the more common "knock" or "ping" which is usually caused by a hot spot in the combustion chamber that ignites the fuel early and is often called "pre-ignition".


True detonation in a turbo gas engine under full boost with perforate the pistons in seconds.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Bud

"I think it all depends on whether the "someone" has ever lived with a BlueTec engine for any length of time."

There are some sprinter fleet managers that have done that.

The equation is a bit different for fleets. Except for the emissions issues, these are truly great vans and diesel has been the only available option for a long time. Moreover, the range of issues, although very severe is also very narrow. It is quite possible to get good at keeping them running. With a stock of sensors and a Star Diagnostics subscription, it isn't rocket science. The problem is if you are an RVer half way across the country, completely dependent on a single vehicle, and at the mercy of a single, randomly-selected Mercedes dealer who may or may not be sympathetic to the impact on your vacation.

It will be interested to see how the fleet market responds to the availability of gas-fueled Sprinters. Maybe they will jump on it. Maybe they will cling to the devil they know. Maybe they will quickly migrate to the all-electric platforms that will soon be totally practical for short-haul delivery use.

We'll see.