Internet Connections

[Knit]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

I've heard others speak highly of Cradlepoint. I glance at their webpages and see standard language such as "3G/4G Verizon with multi-band LTE". That's fine, but what is it in terms of their technology that supposedly makes it superior to other options?.



I've not yet investigated it seriously because it is carrier-specific here in the U.S., and it can get pricey because of that.



But I'm not sure how that would work functionally if I was trying to use Cradlepoint in Canada.

The Cradlepoint router I have was designed to be a mobile router. It’s used by emergency services that need internet. So it can handle the vibrations in an RV. My IBR600 can use wired, WiFi or 3/4G LTE as the internet source. And you can set it up to “fallback” automatically to LTE when other sources aren’t available. You can get versions for Verizon, ATT or set it up for most North American mobile suppliers. It has four dedicated antenna inputs - two 3/4g LTE Mimo and two WiFi with reliable connections. When combined with antennas like those from Mobile Mark on the roof of my Sprinter it in many cases significantly improves LTE. And once you learn how to do it, you can use the WiFi at your favorite coffee place, food place or your RV park as the WiFi source. I use mine at home when the rv is parked as a backup when cable goes down.

Cradlepoint also has dual sim router/modems so you could switch between say Verizon and ATT if maximum internet availability. Or in your case an US SIM card and a Canadian SIM card.

I first tried a similar setup with a Pepwave Soho. But unlike a avanti, it was not reliable, slow, didn’t fall back to LTE fast enough. And I could not find a USB modem for it that I could get a reliable antenna connection. I fiddled with this for a couple of years until I switched to the Cradlepoint. Sounds like avanti, whom has lots of useful posts to share had the opposite experience and found the Pepwave to be better. I think the real key here was to get a reliable connection to a capable antenna mounted on the roof. I found that with the Cradlepoint.

Try calling the people at 3gstore.com and explain what you are looking for. I found them helpful.

P.S. I have no relationship with either Cradlepoint or 3GStore. Just a customer.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Knit

...

Try calling the people at 3gstore.com and explain what you are looking for. I found them helpful.....

Thus far I've tried Ubersignal, Wilson Amplifiers (maker of weBoost, but I was looking to see if they have commercial-grade products as well as consumer-grade), and there was one other one which never contacted me back (it's in my notes somewhere). And I had previously gotten a full quote from a Cradlepoint rep directly.

The issue with contacting vendors and explaining what I'm looking for is, NOBODY seems to know how to solve the inverse problem. Nobody seems to know HOW to solve the inverse problem, from a technical perspective. They all want to solve the forward problem but that's nothing but a speculative exercise. It costs a great deal of money to speculate in this arena, so I'm not willing to treat the issue as a crap shoot.

In other words, what I really need to do is contact a vendor and say, "I'm obviously on the cusp of viability with this cellular connectivity issue at my location, but I can't push it across the finish line by myself. Tell me exactly what measurements you need me to take for you to be able to interpret what is happening technically, so that you can identify and recommend a specific solution that responds to the observed results."

They can't do it. They cannot, for instance, look at this sequence of Netgear read-outs below (taken successively over about 5 or 10 minutes), and say, "Oh, I see - you are bouncing around because of [this] and in order to fix it you need to buy [this equipment] and configure it like [this] so that your output is [this]."

Instead what they say is "Oh, well, Cradlepoint [or whatever product] might be able to help you with that."

On what basis? By what supportable technical decision tree?

Somebody out there knows how to work this inverse problem. I just haven't found him or her yet.

[hbn7hj]

My head hurts after reading that.

I would put a WeBoost trucker's antenna (has it's own ground plane) or maybe your cell directional antenna at the top of one of those tall trees or on a pole or antenna tower reaching above the trees. If that doesn't improve things then I'd figure I'm SOL till the satellites arrive and quit trying.

[kite_rider]

Really great thread here! Since you guys are up on the latest technology. Can you recommend an unlocked hotspot device (with external antenna connection) that will accept and work with an existing AT&T prepaid nano SIM (I have adapters to make it a bigger SIM if needed)? Hopefully one that's designed for a variety of LTE bands as well as 3G.

Since this is just a 'nice to have' I don't want to buy another wireless plan. I'm hoping to buy a suggested hotspot device and install an antenna on my new roof rack.

As an aside, I used to worry a lot more about connectivity when I was a telecommuter. Now that I'm retired, not so much. For emergencies and real remote places like Baja, I carry an Garmin InReach which seems to work everywhere.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by hbn7hj

My head hurts after reading that.

I would put a WeBoost trucker's antenna (has it's own ground plane) or maybe your cell directional antenna at the top of one of those tall trees or on a pole or antenna tower reaching above the trees. If that doesn't improve things then I'd figure I'm SOL till the satellites arrive and quit trying.

My head hurts after DOING it.

And btw, I did send an email to 3GStore's commercial department (not consumer), laying out the entire predicament in detail - might as well add them to my prospective vendor list. I got a "ticket opened" auto-response thus far. I'll post back if they have anything intelligent to add.

Your tree suggestion is not without merit, EXCEPT, there's a trade-off between wire length and antenna height. That's something I'm struggling with, and something that Technomadia notes does impact MIMO significantly - the longer the lead, the more the signal is degraded. What is gained via height might get lost via degradation.

I might send up my air card and its MIMO on a helium balloon, just for laughs. I'm not kidding. I've already priced the components. If I can elevate it yet still be within good wireless range of the Netgear, it might work.

*EXCEPT*, the MIMO is directional, and I cannot control its direction if it's on a balloon.

It goes on and on. Wallet gets emptier and emptier even as the head hurts more and more. I'd be more inclined to declare a SOL capitulation if I weren't as close to a solution as I seem to be.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Your tree suggestion is not without merit, EXCEPT, there's a trade-off between wire length and antenna height. That's something I'm struggling with, and something that Technomadia notes does impact MIMO significantly - the longer the lead, the more the signal is degraded. What is gained via height might get lost via degradation.

Yes, cable length matters. Whether you win or lose depends on how much better the signal is at height. What matters even more than cable length is number of connectors. Minimizing coax connectors is always worthwhile.

The real solution to cable loss is to go digital at the antenna. That is why all the Ubiquiti devices have little routers in them. You talk to them via shielded Ethernet, so zero loss. The same can be done with LTE.

I might send up my air card and its MIMO on a helium balloon, just for laughs. I'm not kidding. I've already priced the components. If I can elevate it yet still be within good wireless range of the Netgear, it might work.

*EXCEPT*, the MIMO is directional, and I cannot control its direction if it's on a balloon.

To be honest, I think you ware wasting your time with that window-mount MiMo antenna. I know what the Technomadia guys say about it, but I don't believe it. I don't have their subscription, so I can't directly evaluate their methodology, but their published results just aren't plausible.

If you REALLY want to crack your problem, I would do something like this:

1) Get a pair of real yagi antennas, mount them on a mast pointed in the same direction but rotated 45 degrees off horizontal in opposite directions.

2) Mount your Cradlepoint (or something like the Netgear LB1110) directly on the mast, with the two antennas fed into the MiMo ports with the shortest possible pigtails and no intervening connectors. Put the modem in bridge mode.

3)Run Ethernet down the mast to a router.

4) Rotate the mast until you are in a Happy Situation.

From what you have described, I think you would have a very high probability of success with such a setup.

[InterBlog]

There's a sales guy named Patrick at 3GStore whose technical knowledge seems to be better than most. One thing he said right out of the blocks is that Yagi directional antennae MUST have line of sight, or else they create more problems than they solve (his words). This is 100% consistent with my observations.

I have some homework to do based on what else he told me, before I can comment further.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

One thing he said right out of the blocks is that Yagi directional antennae MUST have line of sight, or else they create more problems than they solve (his words).

Was he talking about using a pair of yagis in a MiMo configuration? That is a wholly different ball game. Do NOT underestimate just how big an innovation MiMo is.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by avanti

Was he talking about using a pair of yagis in a MiMo configuration? That is a wholly different ball game. Do NOT underestimate just how big an innovation MiMo is.

No, he was just talking about Yagis generally. I haven't researched the theory to confirm or deny any physical basis for his assertion. I was just struck by it because we bought the Yagi on paid advice from Technomadia. I hired them to do an individual consult on my specific geographic situation and normally I would not disclose the content of their recommendations (they need to have their business model preserved) BUT it is now over a year later and technology has changed and continues to change, so some of their recommendations have been OBE (overcome by events).

Not only did I hire Technomadia, my off-grid neighbor up there is a retired sparky whose specific experience is in communications infrastructure. He looked at the Yagi specs and crowed about it - oh wow, what a great piece of hardware. His prediction was that we'd finally hit a home run with it. Instead, it turned out to be a big fat dud, no matter how carefully we aimed it.

So, something is going on with this tech that is not well understood, is my interim conclusion. I'm intrigued by your configuration suggestion, but based on my experience to date, I won't assume a priori that it would achieve any useful results. But again, I have more homework to do before I can take the logical next steps, based on what Patrick @ 3GStore told me yesterday.

Meanwhile, as I do that homework, is there any vendor who has capitalized on this idea of MIMO Yagis? If so, what is their specific product? If that kind of antenna deployment is obvious and it works, I would expect someone to be peddling it.

[avanti]

It is really not true that these phenomena aren't well-understood. It is just the they are complex. Cell signals at LTE frequencies are fundamentally line-of-sight links. The only reason you can "bend" that rule (no pun intended) is because of diffraction and multi-path reflection, which will get you around obstacles within limits. The problem with non MiMo yagis is that the indirect paths are not always symmetrical out and back, so a single directional antenna might transmit very well, for example, but not receive at all. The active processing in a MiMo antenna pair setup greatly improves this situation. Here is a short video that explains the relationship between line of sight and MiMo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO6L3t40eN4

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Meanwhile, as I do that homework, is there any vendor who has capitalized on this idea of MIMO Yagis? If so, what is their specific product? If that kind of antenna deployment is obvious and it works, I would expect someone to be peddling it.

I have never shopped for yagi MiMo, so I can't really make a specific recommendation. Note, however, there is nothing special about MiMo antennas--you just need two of them plus a MiMo-capable modem. There are zillions of yagi antennas around. It isn't exotic technology, so there are plenty of good ones. As I said, though, it is important that they be mounted with their polarization 90 degrees apart from each other and diagonal WRT the horizon. Otherwise you will be wasting most of the potential redundancy.

[InterBlog]

One of the things that the CSR at 3GStore told me was that, in my scenario, I'm probably going to have to manually lock onto a specific technology. In other words, no matter what hardware is being used to bring the signal INto my van, once it gets in there, the receiving device is going to have to prioritize reliability over speed.

This is the opposite of what typically transpires in the consumer realm. The Netgear AC791L is designed to prioritize speed over reliability. That's why it dashes around like the Energizer bunny on crack, looking for the fastest signal (according to the CSR).

I finally started diving into the RTFM phase of this effort, and I've found that I can't lock this device preferentially, *unless* I'm compelling it to lock onto LTE. It's either lock manually onto LTE, or allow it to do it's self-selected crazy dance. It doesn't allow me to menu-pick HSPA, for instance. For that, I'd need a different device.

Next logical step is for me to investigate other devices into which I could swap the Netgear's sim card when I need locking capability.

Patrick the CSR looked at my numbers and said that I might be able to tease out 1 MB speeds with what I've got, if I could stabilize it. Maybe. That's not very fast, but I could work with it, and it might amount to an 80/20 solution.

[InterBlog]

Eventually I'd like to write up one or more rational, fact-based procedures that describe supportable decision trees for obtaining cellular internet in troublesome areas. Step-wise, as in, if effort A does not yield results, then elevate to procedure B.

Rarely have I encountered as messy a challenge. Cellular connectivity was designed to be invisible to the consumer. People only came behind it and tried to tuck-point the technical information when the invisibility failed. So bits and pieces of information are widely scattered and are uncoordinated at this juncture. And there is no dedicated forum for this subject matter, apparently.

For instance, you can turn your phone into a cellular dowsing rod if you want - and that should be part of any rational process. But once you get your tower confirmed, then you have to go to a different information source which has nothing to do with the first information source, and which may in fact be inconsistent with it. I have encountered this kind of barrier over and over again.

[73shark]

T-Mobile sells a SynchUp module that plugs into your OBDII port and is a hot spot and also monitor some vehicle parameters such as battery voltage, fuel supply, when a door is opened, and trips. Grandkids use it for Xbox on trips.

[InterBlog]

An update to this inquiry I was doing...

I managed to get into Verizon's backroom and connected with a very helpful and competent engineer.

To make a VERY long story short, what appears to have happened recently is that cellular companies have actually updated their systems in a way that made remote cell access worse in many cases. The whole paradigm is revolving around LTE and the coming 5G, and that's great if one happens to be immersed in an LTE-rich signal environment. Not so great if one is in a National Park or other remote area.

This vendor site (here) summarizes one of the core technical problems in a nutshell:

"In cases where both 3G and LTE networks are available but the LTE signal is weak, a modem that supports connection to both networks might still try to connect on LTE instead of dropping down to a more reliable 3G connection. This might cause slow speeds, frequent disconnects, or a complete lack of an Internet connection. To resolve this issue, it may be necessary to have the CradlePoint router instruct your modem to connect to 3G only."

They are referencing CradlePoint, but they could be referring to any router brand that offers manual selection capacity.

Intentionally or accidentally, Verizon made firmware updates and other changes in anticipation of the 2019 discontinuance of 3G, and these changes have pooched us in the intervening time. The evidence suggests that they *took away* our capacity to manually select 3G on devices such as the Netgear AC791L, which is the model number of my air card. That device, as originally built, had the capacity for manual selection - all of the historical Netgear documentation says so. But firmware updates removed that part, leaving the device with the physical capacity to select a remotely-usable 3G band, but without the corresponding programming it would need to do it. It has been intentionally degraded, in other words.

There are remote areas of the U.S. and Canada right now where 3G is the only functional game in town, with LTE being so poor that it is only serving to undermine that game. There may indeed be a sunset date for 3G, but in practice, I don't know how that stacks up against the fact that nobody has moved to update those towers and networks yet. Until there's a solution for that, many of us who work in remote areas are going to remain handicapped with respect to cellular capability.

[73shark]

Originally Posted by shelleybeauvais

Does anyone have a really good connection to the internet? If so, what are you using?

T-Mobile offers a module called SyncUp that plugs into the OBD II port and gives a good connection. It also provides vehicle information to your cell phone such as state of battery, fuel level, vehicle location, and, my favorite, when someone opens the door or otherwise molest your vehicle..

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

An update to this inquiry I was doing...

I managed to get into Verizon's backroom and connected with a very helpful and competent engineer.

To make a VERY long story short, what appears to have happened recently is that cellular companies have actually updated their systems in a way that made remote cell access worse in many cases. The whole paradigm is revolving around LTE and the coming 5G, and that's great if one happens to be immersed in an LTE-rich signal environment. Not so great if one is in a National Park or other remote area.

This vendor site (here) summarizes one of the core technical problems in a nutshell:

"In cases where both 3G and LTE networks are available but the LTE signal is weak, a modem that supports connection to both networks might still try to connect on LTE instead of dropping down to a more reliable 3G connection. This might cause slow speeds, frequent disconnects, or a complete lack of an Internet connection. To resolve this issue, it may be necessary to have the CradlePoint router instruct your modem to connect to 3G only."

They are referencing CradlePoint, but they could be referring to any router brand that offers manual selection capacity.

Intentionally or accidentally, Verizon made firmware updates and other changes in anticipation of the 2019 discontinuance of 3G, and these changes have pooched us in the intervening time. The evidence suggests that they *took away* our capacity to manually select 3G on devices such as the Netgear AC791L, which is the model number of my air card. That device, as originally built, had the capacity for manual selection - all of the historical Netgear documentation says so. But firmware updates removed that part, leaving the device with the physical capacity to select a remotely-usable 3G band, but without the corresponding programming it would need to do it. It has been intentionally degraded, in other words.

There are remote areas of the U.S. and Canada right now where 3G is the only functional game in town, with LTE being so poor that it is only serving to undermine that game. There may indeed be a sunset date for 3G, but in practice, I don't know how that stacks up against the fact that nobody has moved to update those towers and networks yet. Until there's a solution for that, many of us who work in remote areas are going to remain handicapped with respect to cellular capability.

I read this thinking..... how many times have I been to one of the National Parks and found cell service.... rarely......I think it was somewhere near Yellowstone and not too deep into the park.....

Anyway, yeah, cell phone coverage in really remote places like that or other wilderness areas are slim to none.....I hope you have a "backup plan" to get out if you need it.....
Don't ever rely soley on your cellphone.....

Stay safe out there...

[avanti]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

"In cases where both 3G and LTE networks are available but the LTE signal is weak, a modem that supports connection to both networks might still try to connect on LTE instead of dropping down to a more reliable 3G connection. This might cause slow speeds, frequent disconnects, or a complete lack of an Internet connection. To resolve this issue, it may be necessary to have the CradlePoint router instruct your modem to connect to 3G only."

They are referencing CradlePoint, but they could be referring to any router brand that offers manual selection capacity.

Intentionally or accidentally, Verizon made firmware updates and other changes in anticipation of the 2019 discontinuance of 3G, and these changes have pooched us in the intervening time. The evidence suggests that they *took away* our capacity to manually select 3G on devices such as the Netgear AC791L, which is the model number of my air card. That device, as originally built, had the capacity for manual selection - all of the historical Netgear documentation says so. But firmware updates removed that part, leaving the device with the physical capacity to select a remotely-usable 3G band, but without the corresponding programming it would need to do it. It has been intentionally degraded, in other words.

Well, THAT'S depressing. Thanks for this info.

One question: Are you (they) saying that the AC791L has had the ability to set 3G-only removed from its user interface, but that it is still possible to do it programmatically via an external device (presumably via an "AT" command over the USB port). I can't remember whether the Surf SoHo has such a setting. I will have to check.

Thanks again.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by avanti

Well, THAT'S depressing. Thanks for this info.

One question: Are you (they) saying that the AC791L has had the ability to set 3G-only removed from its user interface, but that it is still possible to do it programmatically via an external device (presumably via an "AT" command over the USB port). I can't remember whether the Surf SoHo has such a setting. I will have to check.

Thanks again.

Really good question, and that's also the next logical question: could there be a workaround? The Verizon engineer who worked with me on making this determination was taken aback by what had happened, and told me he would look into it more deeply and report back if he found anything important (it became a matter of personal interest to him).

There IS an immediate workaround supposing one wants to cough up $300 on the spot. That workaround is called the Pepwave BR1 mini router, which has the most elaborate manual band selection interface I've seen to date in a device that is a bit awkward but which could be made to be portable (3GStore sent me a screengrab of it):



But here's the problem with that $300 option: I could make that investment tomorrow, travel out to my property the day after, and find that they've just pulled all 3G off the tower, as they are expected to do at some near-future point that is currently not being communicated to the paying public.

Knowing what I know, what I would PREFER to do is find a cheap throw-away 3G-only router, so that I can have some functionality for the short term, but cut my losses when that point of discontinuance comes.

Verizon will stop selling all 3G equipment to the public in six more days, which is the internal date that they set ahead of the sunset (18 month lead). The other alternative is to wait for that point where everyone realizes that the death knell has truly rung for 3G, and maybe some of these existing equipment prices will start to fall accordingly.

Edit: Personally I suspect that 3G will not be sunset on schedule in some remote areas where it's just not economical to upgrade the towers, due to the low population (my area is part of a census tract that is approximately 8 miles wide, and I doubt that the population exceeds 50 people total). There are plenty of news stories about the end of 3G, but reality often doesn't match the news.

The problem is, I don't know WHICH areas will continue operating legacy equipment. And it's expensive to play a guessing game.

[warpig]

Well, here's a new one. I'm guessing that service will not be cheap!!!!

https://www.airbornewirelessnetwork.com/index.asp

[wny-pat]

Originally Posted by warpig

Well, here's a new one. I'm guessing that service will not be cheap!!!!

https://www.airbornewirelessnetwork.com/index.asp

"Hmm. We’re having trouble finding that site."