Inexpensive way to stay warm while asleep this Winter ...

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by AdamG

The Webasto and Espar systems get connected directly to your main fuel tank. They can operate off gasoline or diesel (depending on model). Ours probably uses about a gallon a day in cold weather to heat....super efficient.

Yeah, I get that, but the gasoline suggestion was rendered by GeorgeRa, and GeorgeRa drives a 2013 diesel Sprinter. If his rig is diesel and my rig is diesel, obviously he's not envisioning a gasoline tank tap. Therefore the gasoline has to come from somewhere else, which is what I'm curious about.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Yeah, I get that, but the gasoline suggestion was rendered by GeorgeRa, and GeorgeRa drives a 2013 diesel Sprinter. If his rig is diesel and my rig is diesel, obviously he's not envisioning a gasoline tank tap. Therefore the gasoline has to come from somewhere else, which is what I'm curious about.

I was speaking from a generic B-class perspective. My van is set-up perfectly, no need to change, especially now with Mercedes stepping in with $1.5B to fix all diesel problems for ever, including changing dashboard to emphasized fuel consumption at 40 MPG.

If I would be getting a small trailer, and before my van it was a close decision I would:
- Heat the van with Espar D2 and kerosene
- Use alcohol or butane as a second option for stove
- Use Espar D2 with air to water heat exchanger to heat water https://www.elgena.de/collections/bo...c-compact-luft
- Compressor fridge.

[avanti]

Don't underestimate what George is saying about the virtues of burning kerosene in a diesel-fired Espar. It is practically a "tune-up in a jug".

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by avanti

Don't underestimate what George is saying about the virtues of burning kerosene in a diesel-fired Espar. It is practically a "tune-up in a jug".

Unaddressed is the question about how to carry it in a body-unmodified B.

Making reasonable assumptions about the Airtronic based on the chart provided (medium heat), and also taking into account anecdotal reports from other users of similar liquid fuel heaters, recognizing that I wouldn't be running it around the clock at comfort levels (I'd be outdoors for part of that time and could dial it lower), all within the context of my target scenario, it suggests about 8 gallons of kerosene, or 56 pounds of kerosene, for 2 weeks off-grid in persistently cold weather.

Where the hell would I put that?!

At least if I were to use 8 gallons of diesel plus or minus, I have a tank for that. If I entered my scenario topped up with fuel, I could draw down that much without any worries.

[Belzar]

I heat with diesel Espar/Alde in a Roadtrek. Puts out plenty of heat. Has maintained comfortable 68F interior when -7F outside, running on lowest electric setting - diesel puts out many more btu's. Not obnoxiously loud on diesel (silent on electric) but still would be rude to run all night if camped next to a tenter in a quiet park. - so I bring a nice warm down quilt for those times.

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

Last night, we boondocked at 19°F and 11,000 feet—too high for the Webasto. We have full windows all around and covered nothing. 37° in the van this morning. We have the Electrowarmth bunk warmer, but didn’t need it.

Msnomer,

Scoured your website looking for mention of the Electrowarmth

How long have you owned your Electrowarmth?

Are you happy with it?

WHEN you do use it & how ie; before you retire at night to warm the bed, all night at a low setting, or turning it back on in the middle of the night?

Have you ever tracked the amp draw of the Bunkwarmer?

From your comment above & knowing you religiously monitor your usage & appliances including those rare 70% nights when there has not been a sufficient solar harvest after a few days, does that mean prioritizing its usage over something else that draws power?

My new unit arrives tomorrow but I will not get mine until after the 20th when I will be able to run some guesstimate tests because my new Novakool is also connected.

Tried everything I could to get the Engel MT45 you recommended in sideways to the rig but unless I was to remove one of the two existing cabinets behind both the dtivers & passengers seat, there was no space in my modified arrangement & the narrow, smaller 05 Roadtrek Versatile 190.

Next build for sure.

[themexicandoctor]

Originally Posted by mumkin

WOW Msnomer, you have an amazing tolerance for cold. I would need it at 57. LOL

As to 12v blankets, the problem that I have seen is that the ones I have checked all warned against using them for hours... as in overnight. Perhaps these are the ones with no heat settings... just on/off.

You are exactly right.

Not the same as a Bunk Warmer or true Electric Blanket.

Camping World had some issues & they pulled them for a couple of years.

And now 10 years later they are $6 cheaper at CW?

I certainly remember the warnings.

[MsNomer]

Ironically, I suspect our max uncovered windows have been an asset in this cold. During the day, we make sure to park in the sun, so the van warms up nicely. Therefore, in the evening it is not cold-soaked. Interior is mid-60’s when we go to bed, so no need for the pad to warm the bed.

Then perhaps our backpacking background comes into play. Our bed quilt that I made with Climashield insulation holds us down to mid-30’s, add some thermals and we're good down much farther, plus the thermals make getting up easier.

Van was down to 37° again last night. We drove 5 miles to a picnic area, which added some warmth. I’m sitting here now eating breakfast at 8:30am in the sunshine, 60° in the van.

As to the Electrowarmth, it’s there if we need it. I don’t think we’ve ever used it above it’s lowest setting.

[jrobe]

This study showed that uncovered windows had an R value of 1 or less (virtually no heat retention) and decent window covers around R 3-4. In other words, they window covers reduced heat loss by 3-4 times. We always take a minute or so to install ours at night and remove them during the day. If someone is happy though with a van that is 37 degrees at night, it doesn't really matter though.

https://builditsolar.com/Projects/Ve...atTransfer.htm

[booster]

Originally Posted by jrobe

This study showed that uncovered windows had an R value of 1 or less (virtually no heat retention) and decent window covers around R 3-4. In other words, they window covers reduced heat loss by 3-4 times. We always take a minute or so to install ours at night and remove them during the day. If someone is happy though with a van that is 37 degrees at night, it doesn't really matter though.

https://builditsolar.com/Projects/Ve...atTransfer.htm

Not that it really matters in this case, but glass does actually conduct less heat than a lot of other stuff used in vans.


The R value in 1/U where U is the heat transfer in Btu/hr per ft2 at 0*F if I read the terms correctly.


U for glass is about 1


U for steel about 50



U for aluminum about 240


This was a lot of conversions, but the ratio of heat transfer should be the same. It shows many times more loss from other materials than glass.


Glass does have another loss though in the IR heat from inside the van is not stopped like it is with metals or even curtains on the glass so you do also gain that.


That said, covering windows certainly helps a lot even if the cover only stops the IR part as there is a lot of glass in these vans, but only if you need to for you personal comfort or to prevent frozen pipes.

[MsNomer]

I’d rather wake up in a cold van watching a sunrise or a bird or a squirrel than wake up in a warm dark cave. To each his own.

[SteveJ]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

I’d rather wake up in a cold van watching a sunrise or a bird or a squirrel than wake up in a warm dark cave. To each his own.

Agreed, though that whole 37* thing is a bit brisk. Ufda!

But I have slept in a tent at 15*, above 0.

I have propane and a furnace, burn baby burn. Sixty is about my minimum for cabin temp now that I relocated to FLA and I'm slowly turning into a fossil.

[themexicandoctor]

Yes 37° is a testament to your good Northern European Genetics.

Because of parking mostly in Urban Areas, I had to black out all rear windows from inside that were already heavily tinted.

But I agree with Msnomer, normally a view is better than a Cave.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by themexicandoctor

.................................

But I agree with Msnomer, normally a view is better than a Cave.

For us 360 degree windows was one of key reasons to go our DIY route.

[InterBlog]

I know this is not an Espar thread, but if anyone can point to a video of one in operation, please post.

Installation videos abound. Bench test videos comparing the Espar to cheap Chinese knock-offs abound. It's less sexy, I guess, to show the mundane scene of one in operation in a van, so that's much harder to find. But I'd like to get a sense for what it sounds like when installed.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

I know this is not an Espar thread, but if anyone can point to a video of one in operation, please post.

Installation videos abound. Bench test videos comparing the Espar to cheap Chinese knock-offs abound. It's less sexy, I guess, to show the mundane scene of one in operation in a van, so that's much harder to find. But I'd like to get a sense for what it sounds like when installed.

Here's one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEaTaJmmXQs

This is outside the vehicle. Inside, the sound is hardly worth talking about. I often have to go out to make sure it is still running.

[wny-pat]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

I know this is not an Espar thread, but if anyone can point to a video of one in operation, please post.

Installation videos abound. Bench test videos comparing the Espar to cheap Chinese knock-offs abound. It's less sexy, I guess, to show the mundane scene of one in operation in a van, so that's much harder to find. But I'd like to get a sense for what it sounds like when installed.

Here is a comparison between the German Espar and the Chinese knock-off. Shows actual operation of both units/how they work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cIWUD-OM4A

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

I know this is not an Espar thread, but if anyone can point to a video of one in operation, please post.

Installation videos abound. Bench test videos comparing the Espar to cheap Chinese knock-offs abound. It's less sexy, I guess, to show the mundane scene of one in operation in a van, so that's much harder to find. But I'd like to get a sense for what it sounds like when installed.

New Eberspacher Airtronics heaters use brushless motors with life span of 5000 hours and quieter fuel pump. Airtronics are stepless so speed is control by set versus current temperatures difference. All new thermostats have built in diagnostics. https://www.heatso.com/ is good company to get them.

Eberspacher, Webasto started fuel powered heaters business followed by Russian Planar (2001) and now Chinese knockoffs. Much easier to get spare parts from established companies but you can get 2 extra Chinese units for parts at about the same price.

Regarding noise, make sure when you compare exhaust noise to check if it is Airtronics versus Hydronic heater, for bulk B-class 2kW D2 Airtronics is sufficient and hydronics usually are 5kW, like for example Rixen. Exhaust noise is corresponding to their power, I have both, and Airtronics is much quieter.
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[engnrsrule]

We use sleeping bags in colder weather but find the propane furnace keeps the van very comfortable. We have boondocked as low as 22 degrees.

[AdamG]

We were just in the Upper Peninsula (Michigan) for a couple nights with lows in the 30's. Our Espar Airtronic B4 worked perfectly. Very quiet and easily kept our whole rv warm (I set it at 65) and it used an imperceptible amount of gasoline.