In-Depth RV Lithium Install & Wiring Film - Mike Mas

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

One of my future projects is designing a split AC unit for my coach using one of the high seer units designed for homes. These units are so efficient a 9K unit will cool the coach as well as a 13.5 roof unit. The split unit will be dead quiet only draw around 6-8 amps which would almost triple my AC running time.

How does that work? My understanding of the ratings of air conditioners is that it is the BTU per hour of heat removal. If that is the case, how can removing 9000btu/hr cool as well as removing 13.500btu/hr? Of course this assuming the same space and heat gain parameters.


Perhaps you mean that a super efficient 13,500btu/hr unit will remove heat as well as a less efficient 13,500btu/hr unit but use the same energy as a 9000btu/hr less efficient unit?

[SteveJ]

I'm kinda, sorta thinking about building out my next RV and have given the idea of a mini split A/C some thought. Very quite and a very efficient inverter driven compressor.

Perhaps time for a new thread for further discussion as I'm thinking this might be a desirable way to go. Further discussion on possible caveats and benefits would be a good thing, I think.

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by booster

How does that work? My understanding of the ratings of air conditioners is that it is the BTU per hour of heat removal. If that is the case, how can removing 9000btu/hr cool as well as removing 13.500btu/hr? Of course this assuming the same space and heat gain parameters.


Perhaps you mean that a super efficient 13,500btu/hr unit will remove heat as well as a less efficient 13,500btu/hr unit but use the same energy as a 9000btu/hr less efficient unit?

I hear what you're saying a BTU is a BTU, but there is a major difference. RV AC units are very inefficient considering their design, single fan motor for both the condenser and evaporator. Other problems is the cooled air has poor insulation and distribution, plus the evaporator is located inches from the condenser and poorly insulated from the sun on the roof.

They say 13.5K but that's not what we're getting, maybe in a perfect environment with outside temperatures at 70 degrees. On the other hand a split unit has an more efficient designed evaporator located inside the coach away from the condenser and direct sun. Both the evaporator and condenser on a split unit use efficient squirrel cage fans, which move are more efficiently and very quiet.

I'll see if I can find my images where I took an 8000 BTU unit apart and mounted the evaporator in a closet and the condenser outside in a compartment in my little 26 ft Freedom type C. It cooled the the coach better than the 13.5K unit on the roof.

Maybe the best way to explain it is its not uncommon for a little 8000 btu wall shaker to even cool an entire house.

[Davydd]

I'd welcome a nenewed discussion about air conditioners as this thread should probably be moved to a B+ or C forum as the OP's system does not have anything to do with Class B campervan in his solution of what was formerly an unconditioned outside storage space that doesn't exist on Class Bs.

ARV's Houghton air conditioner has been discussed already here. ARV installs them in other RVs other than their own. No big revelation there. I will be getting one. Split AC systems have been hashed over often. ARV has investigated them and pretty much decided none was not ready for prime time for a Class B installation. Roadtrek had a couple of experimental vans getting real world test but never adopted them and said very little about them. Avanti has probably been investigating them in this forum more than anyone so I am sure he might have some input. It's a new subject which doesn't relate to this thread. I have my own thoughts about split systems in going through my new design exercise if anyone wants to start or renew an old thread.

[IdleUp]

Thanks for the reply - As outlined in the video, my lithium system is at a disadvantage since it has a 15K btu unit using excessive current from the battery.

RV air conditioning and lithium batteries are one of the same. No one really needs an 800 ah pack in any class of RV to run a Micro, lights or a TV. The whole merit for these larger 800-1000 ah systems, is primarily to run the roof air conditioner.

In order for lithium batteries to be accepted and successful in RVs of every class, the next important step in lithium is reducing the excessive current needed to cool an RV. Testimonial is the new 12 -24 volt AC compressors which can run more effectively without the need of an inverter.

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

PS. I forgot to mention that I also designed a circuit using a cab mounted switch which overrides the Charge Mate Pro allowing the Transit alternator to charge the lithium battery at 125 amps should the need occur.

Why would you do this as anyone who uses a factory alternator for more than 40 amps is said to be destroying the alternator, and you have repeated claim that your system does not need it? Did you find do an energy balance? If so, we are still waiting for that information.

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by booster

Why would you do this as anyone who uses a factory alternator for more than 40 amps is said to be destroying the alternator, and you have repeated claim that your system does not need it? Did you find do an energy balance? If so, we are still waiting for that information.

LOL never heard the term “energy balance” maybe you can help me out!

Anyhow, I never said you or I could not draw over 40 amps from an alternator, it was Mercedes who said that! I personally think its an intelligent approach to preserve the alternator, which is why I installed a 40 amp Charge Mate Pro.

Presently - Mercedes Up-Fitters are prohibited from drawing over 40 amps from the stock alternator. This is the primary reason the folks at MasterVolt designed a 40 amp module to conform to the requirements of Sprinter vans. They also offer a 90 amp version for other manufactures.

It's important to note - the Mercedes alternator is capable of outputting over 200 amps. Booster It's not the amps that destroys the alternator, it's when the alternator has to output high amperage for long periods of time that creates the problem.

Making matters worse, when RV companies began "Parked High Idle Charging" this brought on more new problems because now the alternators were not being properly cooled with frontal air from the grille as it normally would when driving, this resulted in massive heat related failures of the winding and bearings, which is why Mercedes enacted these restrictions.

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

LOL never heard the term “energy balance” maybe you can help me out!

Anyhow, I never said you or I could not draw over 40 amps from an alternator, it was Mercedes who said that! I personally think its an intelligent approach to preserve the alternator, which is why I installed a 40 amp Charge Mate Pro.

Presently - Mercedes Up-Fitters are prohibited from drawing over 40 amps from the stock alternator. This is the primary reason the folks at MasterVolt designed a 40 amp module to conform to the requirements of Sprinter vans. They also offer a 90 amp version for other manufactures.

It's important to note - the Mercedes alternator is capable of outputting over 200 amps. Booster It's not the amps that destroys the alternator, it's when the alternator has to output high amperage for long periods of time that creates the problem.

Making matters worse, when RV companies began "Parked High Idle Charging" this brought on more new problems because now the alternators were not being properly cooled with frontal air from the grille as it normally would when driving, this resulted in massive heat related failures of the winding and bearings, which is why Mercedes enacted these restrictions.

Energy balance is simple, and has been referred to here repeatedly, with explanation and expectations, but ignored.


One more time HOW MUCH POWER DO YOU USE PER DAY, AND UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS? HOW DO YOU GET THAT POWER?


Of course you didn't answer why you need that power when you said it was unnecessary in your system. (and yes, you have repeatedly claimed OEM alternators couldn't survive high amp battery charging, and to qualify with a time limit is certainly a fudge because my own testing has shown that about 20 minutes is max for even high performance alternators running hard.) Of course it isn't needed anyway, so why?



I think that is pretty easy to do if you have tested the performance of the systems. The members here pretty much all have given such information in discussions, as any system evaluation is pretty much useless with it.

[@Michael]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

PS. I forgot to mention that I also designed a circuit using a cab mounted switch which overrides the Charge Mate Pro allowing the Transit alternator to charge the lithium battery at 125 amps should the need occur.

Is that the heavy duty Transit alternator (220A or 250A)?

If so, do you have any data on what a safe duty cycle might be at 125A?

Are you using the Ford CCP's (customer connection points) to connect to the chassis?

I know that Ford allows up to 180A at the CCP's, but I don't know at what duty cycle.

[IdleUp]

Booster thanks for the reply - however, honestly I never heard the term “energy balance” when it comes to lithium. I’ve had conversations for years with nearly every lithium battery vendor in the US and never heard the term used. Regretfully, I also don’t understand what you mean by “usage in a day and how do I get the power”.

While these terms might pertain to your coach and others, my system is unique and requires no calculations because my system only draws 1/2 amp to run the fridge and my entire coach. Even when Linda cooks, it only requires a tiny amount of power for the LED lights and water pump.

Unlike your coach, I don't even have to turn on my inverter, so I can go for weeks without any shore, alternator or solar charging. When I’m traveling, If I park for the night and use the AC or heat, my engine alternator and solar panels top the battery back off. On my recent trip to Florida to ride bikes, we were in the coach for 6 full days and never plugged in or ran the generator.

Regards - Mike

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by @Michael

Is that the heavy duty Transit alternator (220A or 250A)?

If so, do you have any data on what a safe duty cycle might be at 125A?

Are you using the Ford CCP's (customer connection points) to connect to the chassis?

I know that Ford allows up to 180A at the CCP's, but I don't know at what duty cycle.

Mike thanks for the reply - If I recall mine is the 220 amp unit. I know before I removed my flooded cells, I threw my amp meter on the battery and I recall it was charging around 125 amps at idle with no accessories running in the van. For connection I'm using a timed solenoid relay on the CCP.

If you're trying to squeeze the most from the stock alternator, I would recommend you look at the Charge Mate Pro 90 amp version to be safe. The Charge Mate Pro allows the engine battery to help power the coach. When the battery gets to a certain level it then breaks the connection. If the engine battery is low, Charge Mate Pro will bring it back up or even start the engine.

Most of the "Other" isolaters are just simple timed on and off cycle type which run the alternator full bore for 15 min then back off for 15 minutes. The Mastervolt unit is bullet-proof!

Keep us posted!

Mike

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Booster thanks for the reply - however, honestly I never heard the term “energy balance” when it comes to lithium. I’ve had conversations for years with nearly every lithium battery vendor in the US and never heard the term used. Regretfully, I also don’t understand what you mean by “usage in a day and how do I get the power”..................

Energy balance, a very common and generic term is similar to a bank balance, you put money in and take money out, at the end of the day what is your balance, you have seen bank statements, right.

So, you put energy (measured in energy units which I am sure you know well) in and take energy out - so, what is the balance, from where energy came and were it went?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Making matters worse, when RV companies began "Parked High Idle Charging" this brought on more new problems because now the alternators were not being properly cooled with frontal air from the grille as it normally would when driving, this resulted in massive heat related failures of the winding and bearings, which is why Mercedes enacted these restrictions.

Mercedes didn't enact those 40a restrictions because of RVs. Name me one master Mercedes Benz RV up-fitter that provided high-idle charging, a MB option you had to have ordered, that didn't provide second alternators for that? ARV has never ordered a high-idle option I am aware of without providing a second alternator which is a standard with them. I don't think Roadtrek bothered to provide the high alternator option with their second alternator setup. Once again you perpetuate you know nothing about in the operation of lithium-ion batteries in a Class B van harping about stationary idling. I have 800ah to transparently operate my van the same boondocking as if I am on shorepower and so I have no need for stationary idling under those circumstances; and in over 84,000 miles on the road with my lithium ion batteries and second alternator I have a grand total of about 20 hours of idling and I can guarantee most of those hours were demonstration or testing hours.

You probably can't answer Booster question, HOW MUCH POWER DO YOU USE PER DAY, AND UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS? HOW DO YOU GET THAT POWER? I am assuming you don't have the real experience to do so.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I don't think Roadtrek bothered to provide the high alternator option with their second alternator setup.

RT didn't order high idle on the Sprinter until 2018. My guess is that they were trying to mitigate the infamous Voltstart death spiral.

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

While these terms might pertain to your coach and others, my system is unique and requires no calculations because my system only draws 1/2 amp to run the fridge and my entire coach. Even when Linda cooks, it only requires a tiny amount of power for the LED lights and water pump.

Unlike your coach, I don't even have to turn on my inverter, so I can go for weeks without any shore, alternator or solar charging. When I’m traveling, If I park for the night and use the AC or heat, my engine alternator and solar panels top the battery back off. On my recent trip to Florida to ride bikes, we were in the coach for 6 full days and never plugged in or ran the generator.

Regards - Mike

Our inverter is off 99% of the time, as we have a mostly gas system except for the 12v frig which is not a 110v home unit that you seem to think everybody uses, but almost no ones does. So basically, before the frig change and genny removal, our 2007 van from Roadtrek had almost exactly same system as your revolutionary one but with wet cells. The inverter was always off then also.


Davydd seems to have called this correctly in saying

You probably can't answer Booster question, HOW MUCH POWER DO YOU USE PER DAY, AND UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS? HOW DO YOU GET THAT POWER? I am assuming you don't have the real experience to do so.

It is pretty silly to be saying you use hardly any power when you are charging a bunch of drones, running a huge home style PC and monitor setup, and powering a "unkown power use" 300 watt heater if it is cold out.


None of us need to do the energy balance while we travel, even though our monitors do it for us if we want, but we pretty much all have tested it in developing and evaluating our systems. We also are happy to share that information with anyone who wants it. How does one design a complete system without knowing how much energy it needs to supply?



It is very, very, obvious that we are not going to get that information in this case, which makes any claims about your system essentially invalid IMO, do to lack of the even basic data needed to know if does anywhere near what is claimed. To say the system would be good for all RVs simply can't be evaluated at all because if folks don't know how much power you use they can't tell if the system would be overkill or too small for them.


This is just plain old "Engineering 101" stuff that anybody who deals in this kind of thing knows and does, from the basic DIYer to the top PHD researcher.

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Energy balance, a very common and generic term is similar to a bank balance, you put money in and take money out, at the end of the day what is your balance, you have seen bank statements, right.

So, you put energy (measured in energy units which I am sure you know well) in and take energy out - so, what is the balance, from where energy came and were it went?

LOL OK now I'm really confused when you associate bank statements with an RV!,

If you're talking about my systems power usage verses capacity. As I mentioned, unlike other lithium coaches, mine is self sufficient, therefore my lithium system stays 70-90% ahead of its loads thanks to the fact my coach is unique in its use of propane devices such as the 3 Way refrigerator, propane stove and more importantly propane cabin and water heat.

As i mentioned, I just went on a trip to Florida and lived in the coach 24/7 for 6 days and never plugged the coach in or ran the generator. This is what makes my system so advanced from current available lithium RVs which depend on electrical devices requiring a 2nd alternator and running your vans engine.

Where those RV's need to replenish their battery on a constant even daily basis to prevent the battery from depleting, my system only draws 1/2 amp to enable weeks and weeks of camping without running the engine, generator or plugging in.

Regards - Mike

[Davydd]

I leave my 2800w inverter on most all the time, yet it is an easy on/off touch screen button on my always present Silverleaf monitor. Why you ask?

We have 800ah of lithium batteries so as not to have to worry or think about the inverter.

I did say I enjoy the transparency of having my vans electrical systems function identically the same whether in a Walmart parking lot or a full hookup campground with shore power. There is NEVER a question of where we will stop for a night because of our battery status.

We have a microwave with an LED screen. We don't routinely use our microwave as such but the larger digital clock is always on telling us the time. That's just a convenient touch of class and a little nitpick. You have the use of it, so use it.

We use our Keurig coffee maker to make two travel thermos' of coffee when we stop at rest stops or getting fuel at a service station routinely.

We have to electrically operated articulating beds. They operate on AC power. We use them constantly as beds of course but adjusting them constantly for sitting up to read, as a lazy boy lounger or zero-gravity relaxers. I adjust them even while sleeping but lifting the pillow or raising my legs slightly as the great fidgeter. We also have two storage compartments under the beds that you can only get to by operating the beds. So in effect we operate them constantly underway and at night without the annoyance of whether we have an inverter on or off.

We never have the annoyance of whether the 120v 15a AC outlets are on or off. They are there and ready for our portable electric induction cooktop to be plugged in outside or inside.

We do have a wifi ready system on at all times. We have a TV at the ready at all times. We have a rear Pioneer audio system ready at all times.

We have electric floor heat down the center of the aisle. When it is cold outside we can turn it on just before getting out of bed in the morning. That's just a luxury. I accidentally left it on the very first night we occupied our van in the ARV parking lot and woke up at 3 AM. It got down to 5 degrees F. that first night, BTW, when first detected it. It may have gotten us through a night on the 800ah battery bank. However, morning is enough until we get dressed and put our shoes on.

the batteries are alway active probably using 2 amps per hour for all the idiot lights, Silverleaf screen, direct connect alarms, and a Trik-L-Start charger to the chassis batteries and I don't know what else. That's maybe 48ah off the battery per day. Having the inverter on is a guess but say another 2 amps per hour as the Silverleaf screen reads up to about 4 amp draw when not using anything else. So, I can roughly estimate rounding up a 100ah battery draw in a 24 hour period if not doing anything but parking my van and not occupying it. The 800ah battery bank has a usable 640ah because the Silverleaf will cut them off at 20% SOC. I can park and leave my van 6 days with the inverter on, 12 days with the inverter off without disconnecting my batteries. I have my batteries set at 40% SOC when Autogen (the automatic idling) will come on. That's never happened when on the road.

On edit: Did I forget to mention I have absolutely no propane or an Onan generator.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

LOL never heard the term “energy balance” maybe you can help me out!

Anyhow, I never said you or I could not draw over 40 amps from an alternator, it was Mercedes who said that! I personally think its an intelligent approach to preserve the alternator, which is why I installed a 40 amp Charge Mate Pro.

Presently - Mercedes Up-Fitters are prohibited from drawing over 40 amps from the stock alternator. This is the primary reason the folks at MasterVolt designed a 40 amp module to conform to the requirements of Sprinter vans. They also offer a 90 amp version for other manufactures.

It's important to note - the Mercedes alternator is capable of outputting over 200 amps. Booster It's not the amps that destroys the alternator, it's when the alternator has to output high amperage for long periods of time that creates the problem.

Making matters worse, when RV companies began "Parked High Idle Charging" this brought on more new problems because now the alternators were not being properly cooled with frontal air from the grille as it normally would when driving, this resulted in massive heat related failures of the winding and bearings, which is why Mercedes enacted these restrictions.

Why do you keep repeating inaccurate information over and over, even after multiple members have corrected you? You can shout "100% accurate" as many times as you like, but nobody is going to pay any attention to you until you can start citing verifiable sources. "I have spent hours talking to xxx" just doesn't cut it.

The Mercedes "40 amp" restriction is not new, it is not secret, and it is not due to "massive heat related failures". It has been fully-documented in the Body & Equipment Guide since at least 2015:

Page 44:
7.3. Battery
[...]
A 25 AMP current draw requires the use of the reinforced battery. An auxiliary battery ( Option E28 ) must be used for more than 25 AMP current draw.

Page 45:
7.3.1. Retrofitting an additional battery
Do not connect Batteries with a capacity over 100 Ah directly to the vehicle’s electrical system due to potential damage to the basic vehicle.
[...]
If the vehicle is already equipped with one additional battery, no more additional batteries may be connected in parallel without a charging current limitation system. This can be implemented by means of additional electronics. The body manufacturer must ensure that the maximum charging current for both additional batteries is 40 A. If this is not the case, the basic vehicle may be damaged. A suitable alternator must be selected to ensure that the overall charging balance is positive

Page 46:
NOTE: A new generation of regulators is used in the Sprinter. The alternator regulator is equipped with a LIN (Local Interface Network) interface. The characteristics of the LIN alternators are fixed in the engine control unit. For this reason aftermarket alternators cannot be retrofitted. As of model year 2010 w. engine type OM642 (6 cylinder) a 220 Amp alternator (STD) is available.
As of model year 2014 w. engine OM651 (4 cylinder) a 200 Amp alternator (STD) is available. An optional 250 Amp alternator (code M60) is available.
No D+ (engine running positive signal) output is available at alternator with LIN Bus technology, only at the Upfitter connector EK1 (see Chapter 6.3.1.) under driver seat.

Source: Body & Equipment Guideline (BEG) SPRINTER 2015

The first part (about requiring the second battery option E28 when drawing more than the 25 amps that are available at the EK1 connector) has been extant for many years.

The actual reason for this is not flaming alternators--all modern systems are thermally-protected from this kind of failure. It was introduced in anticipation of modern energy management systems. You can't treat modern alternators as if they were "dumb" devices with internal voltage regulation. As documented above, Sprinters have used LIN-controlled alternators since MY2010. Starting with the OM651 engine in MY2014, they introduced Intelligent Power Management (Option E33), which was standard on all US-spec'd OM651's. Among other things, this system involves a sensor that includes a shunt mounted on the chassis battery. Anyone who proposes to steal more than 40 amps of power from the chassis had better be prepared to explain which side of this shunt they propose to tap -- it will make a huge difference on how the ECU "sees" the battery, which it uses as a buffer for power management during high and low engine load. 40 amps is allowed for in these algorithms. The 120 amps that you claim to be harvesting most certainly is not. Telling people that it is fine to ignore these engineering specifications is irresponsible. Strapping on an amp meter to see what seems to work is shade-tree stuff, not engineering.

It would be really nice if instead of your "LOLs" or your constant claims to "100% accuracy", you actually engaged in the technical conversation that others have been attempting to have. There are real facts to be understood. Highfalutin claims that "I'm smarter than all of you" don't cut it.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

LOL OK now I'm really confused when you associate bank statements with an RV!,

If you're talking about my systems power usage verses capacity. As I mentioned, unlike other lithium coaches, mine is self sufficient, therefore my lithium system stays 70-90% ahead of its loads thanks to the fact my coach is unique in its use of propane devices such as the 3 Way refrigerator, propane stove and more importantly propane cabin and water heat.

As i mentioned, I just went on a trip to Florida and lived in the coach 24/7 for 6 days and never plugged the coach in or ran the generator. This is what makes my system so advanced from current available lithium RVs which depend on electrical devices requiring a 2nd alternator and running your vans engine.

Where those RV's need to replenish their battery on a constant even daily basis to prevent the battery from depleting, my system only draws 1/2 amp to enable weeks and weeks of camping without running the engine, generator or plugging in.

Regards - Mike

I appreciate your honesty; it is difficult to answer questions while being confused. It could help you to digest the difference between power and energy, different units, different physical quantities.

[IdleUp]

OK thanks for all the reply's, regardless of when the 40 amp limit was enacted, its in place to prevent running the stock alternator at higher than normal loads which lithium batteries in RV's created.

In addition, there are two other Mercedes restrictions to be released, one prohibiting auto-start systems and another involving the regen cycle, which I'm not free to discuss openly. If any of you guys have an open relationship as I do with Up Fitters, you might try calling them to keep up to speed on current and future restrictions.

Please understand, This is certainly not my first in-depth work on RV's, I've been writing articles for decades. Prior to publishing any stats in my articles or films, it is "Triple Verified" by the perspective manufactures. I pride my work on being 100% factual.

Thanks - Mike


PS: It's also important to note the "High Idle feature" has nothing to do with the alternator or its restrictions! Even Freightliner offers a high idle feature they are more designed for engine warm-up.