In-Depth RV Lithium Install & Wiring Film - Mike Mas

[avanti]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Why would anyone who spends years designating electronic equipment want to share openly with forum users?

Oh, let's see...
Maybe because:

Dude I'm retired and could care less regarding clicks or views or what ever you choose to call them.... Fortunately, I worked all my life so I don't have depend on others for my support.

The purpose of my reviews and articles is for the sole purpose to help other RVer's

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Booster there is such a thing as being Propriety - Why would anyone who spends years designating electronic equipment want to share openly with forum users?

Try calling Lithionics and ask them for a diagrams and data on their BMS and see how far it gets you?

Lithionics will give you lots of information of the type we are asking for. Daily power use under stated conditions, temp settings for cutoffs, restart procedures, heater type and power use, etc.



There is zero, repeat zero, proprietary about saying how much power your heaters use and under what conditions. If you are unwilling to give out that information, it is either because you don't know it, or it would not back up your claims, IMO.


Would you buy a car that claims it gets "the greatest gas mileage", but we won't tell you what it is or how it was measured?

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Booster is asking for energy balance, perhaps you have developed cold fusion battery and it is proprietary and would agree it should stay proprietary. I heard someone in US developed such a battery recently, if I remember correctly it was in Utah.

LOL I developed something far more difficult and more important, I developed the first Military front line surveillance drone and I also developed the first motion picture aerial platform. If I would have published my drawings and data for everyone to see, I would have lost 20+ years developing the projects and the resulting royalties I now earn.

Does it make any sense now?

Mike

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

LOL I developed something far more difficult and more important, I developed the first Military front line surveillance drone and I also developed the first motion picture aerial platform. If I would have published my drawings and data for everyone to see, I would have lost 20+ years developing the projects and the resulting royalties I now earn.

Does it make any sense now?

Mike

Wow, more difficult and complex than cold fusion, I am so impressed now


And just what does this have to do with the fact you will give no data on any of your claims that don't make sense?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

LOL I developed something far more difficult and more important, I developed the first Military front line surveillance drone and I also developed the first motion picture aerial platform. If I would have published my drawings and data for everyone to see, I would have lost 20+ years developing the projects and the resulting royalties I now earn.

Does it make any sense now?

Mike

It does, your accomplishments dwarf rather trivial cold fusion battery, congratulation. I bet you have at least twenty patents in your name.

[Davydd]

I have 2 5w 12v electrical heating pads sandwiched between the lithium batteries Below the van. They will keep the batteries above freezing when temps go to -20F observed and they are not on all the time even at temperatures below 0F because they are controlled by a thermostat set at 41F. I can observe on a screen when heat is active because there is flame symbol that appears. Since I have 800ah of batteries, they heating pads run directly off them. At 10 watts they will draw 240 watts off the batteries in a 24 hour period maximum if they are on all the time. I doubt in reasonable camping weather down around 20F they would not be on over 50% of the time.

Heat for the fresh water tank is from return waste heat from the glycol after the heater and hot water exchange with the diesel-fired Rixen system that will be on and sipping a half cup diesel per hour while heating the van for comfort which also heats all the storage. I could install heating pads on the grey and black water tanks but haven’t found it necessary. I might on my next van instead of doling out pink anti-freeze in the toilet and the bathroom floor drain trap. That does the job now.

I’ve Boondock camped numerous times now in below freezing temperatures with fresh water in an exterior tank. I once boondocked a full week with below freezing temperatures 24 hours per day constantly. My record temperature was twice at -15F waking up in the morning.

Electric heat to heat air space is extremely inefficient especially in heating basically dead storage space and not living space. Almost any B van can be lived in below freezing with electric heat coming from shore power. It is demonstrated every year at Mike Wendland’s January Winter Freezeout in Michigan’s UP which I’ve attended several times. But at 300w I don’t see how you can anymore than the opposite air conditioning on batteries. They have shore power at their disposal, lots of cut wood and a lot of Fireball whiskey. This thread is cutting edge nonsense.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I have 2 5w 12v electrical heating pads sandwiched between the lithium batteries Below the van. They will keep the batteries above freezing when temps go to -20F observed and they are not on all the time even at temperatures below 0F because they are controlled by a thermostat set at 41F. ...............................

I can't see a better way to do it.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

First Off - all your math on the heater and amperage is just a wild guess because "yours truly" designed the interface which works off the BMS AMPseal connector to control the heaters thermostat at selected temperature levels.

In Addition - The heater's AC circuit is independent of the RVs inverter, so I can control the wattage of the heater through my interface. My system is 100% propriety there's no other like it, as is the ventilating system which I also designed for the coach.

The Heat Blanket - You mentioned would be absolutely worthless for my use because I use the trunk to store my drones used for my professional aerial photography. Both the machines IMU and the lithium batteries need to be kept at proper temperatures.

Is any of this starting to make sense to you guys?

That contradicts what is posted here: https://www.xtremeheaters.com/winter...battery-heater

Briefly, each lithium battery has a BMS battery management system which protects it from over and under charging and also terminates the connection if the battery is too hot or too cold. Therefore if a guy has a lithium powered coach, if the temp gets below freezing, the BMS shuts the whole thing down and the owner can’t use the battery or even charge it until the temp goes above freezing again. Xtreme heater prevents this from happening, which is why its a vital part of the installation. Since the heater has a low 300 watt draw, the battery itself can provide the AC needed to run the heater through the inverter.

300 watt draw and inverter needed are both specifically mentioned.

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I can't see a better way to do it.

If davydd's estimates of 50% run time are correct, he would use maybe 12ah per day, which certainly would indicate no need to it any other way.



It would cost you that much power to run the pump in a hot water system that heats the van and water heater on van fuel.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I can't see a better way to do it.

It is beyond obvious that proximally-placed heating pads (or better yet, heating elements embedded in the batteries) is the proper solution. It is analogous to plumbing freeze-protection in residential pipes: You don't insulate and heat the entire crawl space; you use heat tape. As I said, as far as I know, all professionally-designed battery systems are done that way. I am not against the kind of tinkering described here, but it needs to be presented as such.

[booster]

I would have to contend many of us "do know better" than to put faith blindly into claims with no facts or data provided, especially when they appear to not make sense related to the claims, in a technical sense.


We have asked for the power balance (uses vs sources) since the very beginning and have not seen anything on it, so to claim any questions related to power use can't be claimed to be "completely wrong" unless some data and proof is offered. To claim how much power you use and where it comes from is "proprietary" is so far out of realty it is seen as nothing but a dodge to giving any real data.



Of course your list of 4 items is certainly true in the absolute sense, that is what heaters are needed for. The questions relate to electrically heating a big cabinet off of batteries in an RV and "apparently" needing a 300watt heater to do it. Of course, if we had ever seen a power balance for he entire system we wouldn't have to guess or believe statements that it is not a huge power user.

[Davydd]

To add to my comments this is the Silverleaf screen readout where I can monitor the cell temperatures that the BMS puts out for each individual battery cell made up of four 200ah, 3.4v cells in series making a 12v, 200ah and then four in parallel to make a 800ah battery block. I caught it still with heat on because two cells just reached 41 degrees. The Heat button has green handles. That's how I know it is armed (turned on). The little flame then comes and goes which is the indicator that the pads are actually heating. As I mentioned if it is somewhere near just freezing that flame symbol would come and go just to maintain 41 degrees and the heating pads may not come on until the air temperature drops to the mid or lower 20s because the batteries are also in an insulated box under the van exposed on the top tight to the floor with applied radiant heat from the diesel-fired Espar and when lithium batteries have an active load or being charged their cell temperatures are anywhere from 10-20 degrees from what I can tell by experience observation above the ambient (air) temperature.



This is not my battery but another being built by ARV showing the installation of the electric heating pad that will be sandwiched between two 12V battery assemblies. Since I have four, two pads are needed. I think the uneven placement not covering the entire battery surface causes the range of 41 to 48 degrees. No harm since the heat is applied until the last battery maintains 41 degrees. 5w pads heat the batteries down to -20F ambient that I was able to observe. I mentioned to ARV I've observed lower air temperatures in Minnesota down to -36 to -43F at my old house but hadn't in 5 years so far. So if I got this system again I might opt for more heating pads. But read on...



Mine is the first 800ah lithium battery bank like this ARV built in 2014 and it is still going strong in one of the harshest cold climates. They built 400ah and 600ah battery blocks in the same insulated box. These are the Elite Power Solutions of Phoenix CALB batteries, the same ones but newer series than the ones the Technomadia blog reported on extensively back in time. Before that they were doing drop-in profile lithium batteries and up to 400ah (four drop-ins) in accessible boxes under the floor back to 2012 when the company was formed.

ARV builds two other systems now. The premier one is the 48v (actually about 56v) Volta system that some other up-fitters have adopted which is installed inside the van shell and the one I opted for, the Valence 12v 828ah system which they also install inside the van, usually under a bed. Mine will be under a single bed. The Valence batteries have a different chemistry of lithium ion Manganese Phosphate (LiFeMgPo4) which are rated to withstand storage temperatures down to -40F (-40C) which is the same manufacturers usually say AGMs are good for. The charge temperature of not below freezing still applies and optimally above 41F. Charging when batteries go below freezing is prevented by the BMS I understand and not by my active involvement in maintaining temperatures. The absolute of -4F (-20C) or -40F or C in my new case would need active involvement by the owner.

This is my five years of use, experience and observation. A 120V 15a electrical source is a must with lithium battery owners where freezing temperatures can occur which is most of the United States. By model building code a house has to have an outside source. Apartments, Condos and HOAs may be a different case and additional provisions have to be made if off-site stored. I opted for heated off-site storage that I have mentioned in other threads.

This is ARV's white paper PDF on their battery systems and general lithium-ion info that is useful from a seminar about batteries at ARV Fest last year. They have an ARV Fest every May and freely share, demonstrate and show just about everything under development and conduct seminars presented by outside vendors and partners. It does cost you money, primarily for provided lunches, dinners and snack food and entertainment over a few days. You can boondock on site and you can benefit from seeing and visiting vans of other owners.

Advanced RV Lithium Batteries

I suspect they will have newer information this coming ARV Fest and you will see actual installations in owner's vans and being built.

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by Davydd

To add to my comments this is the Silverleaf screen readout where I can monitor the cell temperatures that the BMS puts out for each individual battery cell made up of four 200ah, 3.4v cells in series making a 12v, 200ah and then four in parallel to make a 800ah battery block. I caught it still with heat on because two cells just reached 41 degrees. The Heat button has green handles. That's how I know it is armed (turned on). The little flame then comes and goes which is the indicator that the pads are actually heating. As I mentioned if it is somewhere near just freezing that flame symbol would come and go just to maintain 41 degrees and the heating pads may not come on until the air temperature drops to the mid or lower 20s because the batteries are also in an insulated box under the van exposed on the top tight to the floor with applied radiant heat from the diesel-fired Espar and when lithium batteries have an active load or being charged their cell temperatures are anywhere from 10-20 degrees from what I can tell by experience observation above the ambient (air) temperature.



This is not my battery but another being built by ARV showing the installation of the electric heating pad that will be sandwiched between two 12V battery assemblies. Since I have four, two pads are needed. I think the uneven placement not covering the entire battery surface causes the range of 41 to 48 degrees. No harm since the heat is applied until the last battery maintains 41 degrees. 5w pads heat the batteries down to -20F ambient that I was able to observe. I mentioned to ARV I've observed lower air temperatures in Minnesota down to -36 to -43F at my old house but hadn't in 5 years so far. So if I got this system again I might opt for more heating pads. But read on...



Mine is the first 800ah lithium battery bank like this ARV built in 2014 and it is still going strong in one of the harshest cold climates. They built 400ah and 600ah battery blocks in the same insulated box. These are the Elite Power Solutions of Phoenix CALB batteries, the same ones but newer series than the ones the Technomadia blog reported on extensively back in time. Before that they were doing drop-in profile lithium batteries and up to 400ah (four drop-ins) in accessible boxes under the floor back to 2012 when the company was formed.

ARV builds two other systems now. The premier one is the 48v (actually about 56v) Volta system that some other up-fitters have adopted which is installed inside the van shell and the one I opted for, the Valence 12v 828ah system which they also install inside the van, usually under a bed. Mine will be under a single bed. The Valence batteries have a different chemistry of lithium ion Manganese Phosphate (LiFeMgPo4) which are rated to withstand storage temperatures down to -40F (-40C) which is the same manufacturers usually say AGMs are good for. The charge temperature of not below freezing still applies and optimally above 41F. Charging when batteries go below freezing is prevented by the BMS I understand and not by my active involvement in maintaining temperatures. The absolute of -4F (-20C) or -40F or C in my new case would need active involvement by the owner.

This is my five years of use, experience and observation. A 120V 15a electrical source is a must with lithium battery owners where freezing temperatures can occur which is most of the United States. By model building code a house has to have an outside source. Apartments, Condos and HOAs may be a different case and additional provisions have to be made if off-site stored. I opted for heated off-site storage that I have mentioned in other threads.

This is ARV's white paper PDF on their battery systems and general lithium-ion info that is useful from a seminar about batteries at ARV Fest last year. They have an ARV Fest every May and freely share, demonstrate and show just about everything under development and conduct seminars presented by outside vendors and partners. It does cost you money, primarily for provided lunches, dinners and snack food and entertainment over a few days. You can boondock on site and you can benefit from seeing and visiting vans of other owners.

Advanced RV Lithium Batteries

I suspect they will have newer information this coming ARV Fest and you will see actual installations in owner's vans and being built.

Davy thanks but this is old news and certainly nothing earth-shaking. The Lithionics BMS has all this data. Regretfully, Silverleaf and Rozie is dated and a disaster to learn and use. Every Newmar coach with Silverleaf has been a disaster for their owners, to include my own Newmar New Aire which I wrote a detailed article on, after a year of back and forth they never could get the Newmar system to operate as designed.

What is new news is my soon to be installed XC 3000 Pro Inverter will be controlled from my Firefly system remotely from any location in the world.

Regards - Mike

PS By the way - I know the good folks at Advanced RC to include Trica and Mike Neundorfer.

[IdleUp]

Concerning the reply's of using a heating blanket designed to prevent water pipes from freezing and valued at $30 - this device would be inadequate to protect the main lithium battery plus my other electronic equipment stored in this compartment such as my drone equipment where the Drone's IMU and Lithium batteries need to be temperature controlled. This is precisely why I designed my own propriety heating and ventilating system in this coach.

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Concerning the reply's of using a heating blanket designed to prevent water pipes from freezing and valued at $30 - this device would be inadequate to protect the main lithium battery plus my other electronic equipment stored in this compartment such as my drone equipment where the Drone's IMU and Lithium batteries need to be temperature controlled. This is precisely why I designed my own propriety heating and ventilating system in this coach.

That is all fine, we understand you want the cabinet heated. The question still remains, where does the power come from and how much does it take?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

That is all fine, we understand you want the cabinet heated. The question still remains, where does the power come from and how much does it take?

This could be a good option, fuel ubiquitously available .

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

This could be a good option, fuel ubiquitously available .

That would likely work very well for him with all the products he seems to be "pedaling".

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by booster

That is all fine, we understand you want the cabinet heated. The question still remains, where does the power come from and how much does it take?

I'll be happy to answer you concerns - Since I don't camp or work in sub zero weather, my propriety heating system is designed for storage to prevent the lithium from reaching lower temperatures and shutting down 12 volt power or prevent charging. It's important to note that Lithium battery manufactures do not recommend that batteries be exposed to extreme weather.

When driving - the Transit’s alternator using my Charge Mate Pro and my solar panels, provide enough amperage to heat the compartment and actually charge the lithium battery.

I designed the system using its own AC power system so the main inverter is not used to run the heater. My interface allows me to alter the heater wattage depending on temperature. The interface uses the temperature sensors from the lithium cells which is provided on BMS's for needed data to operate my heating and cooling interface.

Mike

PS. I forgot to mention that I also designed a circuit using a cab mounted switch which overrides the Charge Mate Pro allowing the Transit alternator to charge the lithium battery at 125 amps should the need occur.

[avanti]

Moderator's note:
I did a light cleanup of this thread (yet again). The purpose was to remove repetition. Please refrain from posts that are simply rehashes of what has already been said.

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by Davydd

To add to my comments this is the Silverleaf screen readout where I can monitor the cell temperatures that the BMS puts out for each individual battery cell made up of four 200ah, 3.4v cells in series making a 12v, 200ah and then four in parallel to make a 800ah battery block. I caught it still with heat on because two cells just reached 41 degrees. The Heat button has green handles. That's how I know it is armed (turned on). The little flame then comes and goes which is the indicator that the pads are actually heating. As I mentioned if it is somewhere near just freezing that flame symbol would come and go just to maintain 41 degrees and the heating pads may not come on until the air temperature drops to the mid or lower 20s because the batteries are also in an insulated box under the van exposed on the top tight to the floor with applied radiant heat from the diesel-fired Espar and when lithium batteries have an active load or being charged their cell temperatures are anywhere from 10-20 degrees from what I can tell by experience observation above the ambient (air) temperature.



This is not my battery but another being built by ARV showing the installation of the electric heating pad that will be sandwiched between two 12V battery assemblies. Since I have four, two pads are needed. I think the uneven placement not covering the entire battery surface causes the range of 41 to 48 degrees. No harm since the heat is applied until the last battery maintains 41 degrees. 5w pads heat the batteries down to -20F ambient that I was able to observe. I mentioned to ARV I've observed lower air temperatures in Minnesota down to -36 to -43F at my old house but hadn't in 5 years so far. So if I got this system again I might opt for more heating pads. But read on...



Mine is the first 800ah lithium battery bank like this ARV built in 2014 and it is still going strong in one of the harshest cold climates. They built 400ah and 600ah battery blocks in the same insulated box. These are the Elite Power Solutions of Phoenix CALB batteries, the same ones but newer series than the ones the Technomadia blog reported on extensively back in time. Before that they were doing drop-in profile lithium batteries and up to 400ah (four drop-ins) in accessible boxes under the floor back to 2012 when the company was formed.

ARV builds two other systems now. The premier one is the 48v (actually about 56v) Volta system that some other up-fitters have adopted which is installed inside the van shell and the one I opted for, the Valence 12v 828ah system which they also install inside the van, usually under a bed. Mine will be under a single bed. The Valence batteries have a different chemistry of lithium ion Manganese Phosphate (LiFeMgPo4) which are rated to withstand storage temperatures down to -40F (-40C) which is the same manufacturers usually say AGMs are good for. The charge temperature of not below freezing still applies and optimally above 41F. Charging when batteries go below freezing is prevented by the BMS I understand and not by my active involvement in maintaining temperatures. The absolute of -4F (-20C) or -40F or C in my new case would need active involvement by the owner.

This is my five years of use, experience and observation. A 120V 15a electrical source is a must with lithium battery owners where freezing temperatures can occur which is most of the United States. By model building code a house has to have an outside source. Apartments, Condos and HOAs may be a different case and additional provisions have to be made if off-site stored. I opted for heated off-site storage that I have mentioned in other threads.

This is ARV's white paper PDF on their battery systems and general lithium-ion info that is useful from a seminar about batteries at ARV Fest last year. They have an ARV Fest every May and freely share, demonstrate and show just about everything under development and conduct seminars presented by outside vendors and partners. It does cost you money, primarily for provided lunches, dinners and snack food and entertainment over a few days. You can boondock on site and you can benefit from seeing and visiting vans of other owners.

Advanced RV Lithium Batteries

I suspect they will have newer information this coming ARV Fest and you will see actual installations in owner's vans and being built.

Now that some of the smoke has cleared - thanks for the detailed reply on your lithium system, it looks good. I'm aware that Advance RV is a major player in the lithium market. Aside from discussing their lithium battery offerings, I had some lengthy conversations with Mike regarding his very quiet roof top AC unit, which I hoped to change out and include in my video.
Their unit has some unique design features such as dual fans, special evaporator and condenser design as well as circuitry that slows the fans down to save amperage as the unit cools. Regretfully, my Dometic AC unit is a power hog so its coming out for either his unit or a 13.5K unit Dometic offers which is also super quiet and Bluetooth. The best part it only draws around 10 amps.

One of my future projects is designing a split AC unit for my coach using one of the high seer units designed for homes. These units are so efficient a 9K unit will cool the coach as well as a 13.5 roof unit. The split unit will be dead quiet only draw around 6-8 amps which would almost triple my AC running time.

Here's a quick video of Advance RV AC unit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zQkBDPOLW4