In-Depth RV Lithium Install & Wiring Film - Mike Mas

[markopolo]

Enjoy your vacation Mike! Looks like you've found a new home here on Class B Forum. Who would have thought that would happen?

When you have a moment:

I'm a curious about your setup's Neutral Bonding and Safety Ground connections. When the Freedom XC 1000 is plugged in the neutral & ground bond will occur at the AC source main panel. If the Freedom SW 3012 is inverting at the same time then a neutral / ground bond will occur inside the Freedom SW 3012.

How did you deal with that? Was it as simple as not connecting the Freedom XC 1000 safety ground?

Also, it would be interesting to see an updated photo of this storage compartment that might have been converted to be another electrical bay:


any heat issues.JPG

My guess is that both Freedom XC 1000 and the Freedom SW 3012 reside there along with some additional components. Ventilation appears to be two holes at the rear of a side wall. Upward airflow from those holes is blocked by the bed/seat cushion. I'd expect that the fans will run often if relying on convection to cool that area. Was cooling of that compartment subsequently upgraded? If not, have you noticed any performance derating?

[Brad1998RD]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Thanks to my system design of wall mounting devices, I lost no floor space in the coach. Even the battery is suspended off the floor. As I mentioned, the stock flooded batteries and steel case, originally took up the entire left side of the trunk, which is now open, so I actually gained usable space. Another plus is my coach is 50+ pounds lighter with lithium.

David regretfully, you can’t begin to compare your 800 ah to mine.
In the real world - I’ll be out for a weeks longer than you, since unlike your coach, I don't have your constant draw of 12 & 110 volt appliances like you do.

Most important - my advanced system “Totally Eliminates” the need to run the diesel engine for charging, wasting diesel fuel creating excess carbon build up to the engine and DPF, plus all the associated problems and failures using 2nd alternators.

Regarding propane - I suggest you re-view my film again, since it explains the important fact that propane is the one best asset for any lithium RV. Facts are facts - when I’m off the grid, my coach requires less than a 1/4 amp to run. Also, unlike your coach where your panels are trying to keep up with draw, my solar panels actually increase my battery charge levels.

Best Regards - Mike


PS: I also wanted to mention that my system is applicable to all motor homes not just B & B+ models.

Well if we are going to deal in facts, there are no class B+ RVs those are made up by dealers and salesman.
The only classes recognized and certified by RVIA is class A Class B and Class C. Period.

[timp410]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Thanks for all the reply's guys - The upgrade is applicable to any motorhome, travel trailer or even a boat. Generally speaking, a lithium upgrade on a B coach can run up to $20K, when you consider the manufacture kept your generator. My advanced installation cost is much less than those figures.

In any respect, It's hard to put a an exact price on my installation because what you'll generally get in a B upgrade will not have the features offered in mine.

Regarding the user who mentioned I lost a lot of space, that is not really the case, in fact I have much more room now than I did before, because the two flooded batteries filled the entire left side of the trunk. In addition, I'm 57 pounds lighter with my lithium upgrade. The steel battery case itself weighs more than one of my packs.

Regards Mike

You did a fantastic job in my opinion. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to offer their knowledge and expertise when it comes to lithium. I own a 2016 Roadtrek CS Adventurous and I am looking at upgrading to lithium. I currently have four 6V AGM batteries along with 270 watts of solar, a second alternator and a 2500 watt inverter. I have been researching several options. I like the Battle Born option so far. My coach is already wire with 4/0 welding wire. I would love to have the option to keep my AGM's as an optional backup power source. I would like to use some kind of switch that would allow me the ability to switch between to the battery banks if possible. The problem I see with this configuration would be the different charging profiles. Do you have any advice you could offer?
Thanks

[booster]

Originally Posted by timp410

You did a fantastic job in my opinion. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to offer their knowledge and expertise when it comes to lithium. I own a 2016 Roadtrek CS Adventurous and I am looking at upgrading to lithium. I currently have four 6V AGM batteries along with 270 watts of solar, a second alternator and a 2500 watt inverter. I have been researching several options. I like the Battle Born option so far. My coach is already wire with 4/0 welding wire. I would love to have the option to keep my AGM's as an optional backup power source. I would like to use some kind of switch that would allow me the ability to switch between to the battery banks if possible. The problem I see with this configuration would be the different charging profiles. Do you have any advice you could offer?
Thanks

You need to take a look at the discussions on hybrid battery systems on this forum. Harry has already built one and used it for some time. You can get the benefits of both types of batteries, both AGM and lithium. Might be just what you are looking for.


http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...stem-8988.html

[timp410]

Originally Posted by booster

You need to take a look at the discussions on hybrid battery systems on this forum. Harry has already built one and used it for some time. You can get the benefits of both types of batteries, both AGM and lithium. Might be just what you are looking for.


http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...stem-8988.html

Awesome, thanks for providing me a link to the thread.

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Enjoy your vacation Mike! Looks like you've found a new home here on Class B Forum. Who would have thought that would happen?

When you have a moment:

I'm a curious about your setup's Neutral Bonding and Safety Ground connections. When the Freedom XC 1000 is plugged in the neutral & ground bond will occur at the AC source main panel. If the Freedom SW 3012 is inverting at the same time then a neutral / ground bond will occur inside the Freedom SW 3012.

How did you deal with that? Was it as simple as not connecting the Freedom XC 1000 safety ground?

Also, it would be interesting to see an updated photo of this storage compartment that might have been converted to be another electrical bay:


Attachment 8301

My guess is that both Freedom XC 1000 and the Freedom SW 3012 reside there along with some additional components. Ventilation appears to be two holes at the rear of a side wall. Upward airflow from those holes is blocked by the bed/seat cushion. I'd expect that the fans will run often if relying on convection to cool that area. Was cooling of that compartment subsequently upgraded? If not, have you noticed any performance derating?

Marco thanks for the reply - Yeah regarding my new home here - I was so over-joyed by all the attention on this forum, I decided to spend some extra time with you guys!

In a serious note - The 3012 bonding is factory stock - after re-wiring with heavier 110 wire everything on the inverted side remained the same except I tapped into the inverter out side and installed an outlet to power my Combox, 4G router, heating circuit and cooling fans.

The inverter has plenty of air circulation. Both compartments are open to each other. The two 4" holes are not closed off they vent in that cavity where the table is to the sale I bought a fan to mount near the door but aced the idea as I'll explain below.

The fan was never installed is because the inverter is coming out of there when I get back home. Fortunately, Xantrex is providing me one of the first Freedom XC 3000 Pro high frequency inverters for my coach, I'll also be doing an in-depth review on the piece.

Since the piece is so much smaller than the SW 3012, I'll wall mount the inverter in the trunk with the batteries, this will reduce my cable run to only a few inches rather than feet, plus the compartment is already heated and cooled and I'll have no cooling fan noise. The engineers at Lithionics battery has the Pro now and working on a lithium charging protocol.

Regarding my Aux charger, she's in the trunk and the unit uses no ground or bonding, for the most part its a dumb charger and has no connectivity to the lithium's AC system. In a sense its like using a battery tender on you car battery.

Regards - Mike

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by timp410

You did a fantastic job in my opinion. I appreciate anyone who takes the time to offer their knowledge and expertise when it comes to lithium. I own a 2016 Roadtrek CS Adventurous and I am looking at upgrading to lithium. I currently have four 6V AGM batteries along with 270 watts of solar, a second alternator and a 2500 watt inverter. I have been researching several options. I like the Battle Born option so far. My coach is already wire with 4/0 welding wire. I would love to have the option to keep my AGM's as an optional backup power source. I would like to use some kind of switch that would allow me the ability to switch between to the battery banks if possible. The problem I see with this configuration would be the different charging profiles. Do you have any advice you could offer?
Thanks

Thanks for the reply and kind words, sounds like you have some good equipment already available in your coach. If you get a minute take a quick look in the video at my battery backup system using an automotive battery. A couple of battery switches could be used to accomplish what you want. While the charging protocol would not be exactly right you could just baby-sit the AGMs while you pop them back up, or you can do as I did in my film and install a smaller dedicated charger just for the AGMs.

In the long run I have a feeling you’ll dump the AGMs after you get your lithium system up and running to get rid of the dead weight and lost space. Lithium will add a whole new dimension in using your RV. Good luck with your project.

Regards Mike

[timp410]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Thanks for the reply and kind words, sounds like you have some good equipment already available in your coach. If you get a minute take a quick look in the video at my battery backup system using an automotive battery. A couple of battery switches could be used to accomplish what you want. While the charging protocol would not be exactly right you could just baby-sit the AGMs while you pop them back up, or you can do as I did in my film and install a smaller dedicated charger just for the AGMs.

In the long run I have a feeling you’ll dump the AGMs after you get your lithium system up and running to get rid of the dead weight and lost space. Lithium will add a whole new dimension in using your RV. Good luck with your project.

Regards Mike

Thank you, I will watch your video again a pay closer attention to your battery backup system. I have been reading though the thread that Booster pointed me too as well.

The main reason for retaining the AGM's is to have a source of power for heating up my coach in case the temp's drop too low to use the lithium's. My coach uses an Alde heating system that runs on propane or electric. Propane works best and heats faster. Through my research, I have also discovered that they make a hybrid inverter/charger for supporting two different battery banks.

[markopolo]

Mike - Is the Freedom XC 1000 shown in the video installed in the RV?

[IdleUp]

Just wanted to update the thread concerning my addition a Extreme Heater to the system. The coach was exposed to temperatures of 14 degrees one night and the heater kept the battery and BMS temperature and compartment right at 41 degrees. This heater serves a dual purpose since the water tank is in the same compartment.

Maintaining proper temperature is important since once lithium batteries get close to 0 degrees the BMS shuts down the battery from charging.

Mike

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Just wanted to update the thread concerning my addition a Extreme Heater to the system. The coach was exposed to temperatures of 14 degrees one night and the heater kept the battery and BMS temperature and compartment right at 41 degrees. This heater serves a dual purpose since the water tank is in the same compartment.

Maintaining proper temperature is important since once lithium batteries get close to 0 degrees the BMS shuts down the battery from charging.

Mike

Their website for those shows the smallest heater as 300watts at 115v, so by the time you figure some inverter inefficiency nearly 30 amps. Even at a 50% duty cycle that would use 150ah of 12v battery capacity in a 10 hour stretch of heating.


You were stating that the under 50ah per DAY used by compressor frigs is excessive and would limit boondocking time, but this use is orders of magnitude higher than the frig.


I am sure davydd will chime in with actual numbers for daily use on the heaters in his ARV lithium setup, which will be an interesting comparison.

[IdleUp]

Booster I would have thought you would have known better - in any case, here a few tips for you concerning lithium heaters and the primary reasons I designed this first compartment lithium heating and ventilating system.

1) The heater is primarily designed for when the coach is parked so the BMS does not shut down the 12 volt power system.

2) The heater allows the battery to be charged in colder weather where otherwise it would not be possible.

3) The heaters secondary use is for traveling in cold weather where the heater is charged by the engine alternator.

4) Lithium battery manufactures recommend the battery to not be stored in extreme weather - i.e.my heater.

Finally, its highly unlikely RV owners would be out camping in 0 degrees weather. Also your amperage estimates are in error!

Thanks - Mike

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Booster I would have thought you would have known better - in any case, here a few tips for you concerning lithium heaters and the primary reasons I designed this first compartment lithium heating and ventilating system.

1) The heater is primarily designed for when the coach is parked so the BMS does not shut down the 12 volt power system.

2) The heater allows the battery to be charged in colder weather where otherwise it would not be possible.

3) The heaters secondary use is for traveling in cold weather where the heater is charged by the engine alternator.

4) Lithium battery manufactures recommend the battery to not be stored in extreme weather - i.e.my heater.

Finally, its highly unlikely RV owners would be out camping in 0 degrees weather. Also your amperage estimates are in error!

Thanks - Mike

1. So you have to be plugged in whenever parked in cold weather?


2. Absolutely true as long as you are plugged in.


3. 40 amps from the alternator is 480 watts maximum and 300 to the heaters leaves a paltry 180 watts to charge a huge battery bank


4. Of course the mfgs said to keep them warm, why do think we were asking about it? Now you come up with a new heater for the "perfect" system.


Note that my replies include calculations and data, and have a common thread of needing shore power for heat. Your posts have no data just claims.


I truly don't see how this heater system fits into being able to stay off grid longer than many other systems when you need shore power or engine running to power it.

[avanti]

Professionally-designed lithium systems use heating pads in physical contact with the batteries, not space heaters. This is obviously far more efficient.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

Just wanted to update the thread concerning my addition a Extreme Heater to the system. The coach was exposed to temperatures of 14 degrees one night and the heater kept the battery and BMS temperature and compartment right at 41 degrees. This heater serves a dual purpose since the water tank is in the same compartment.

Maintaining proper temperature is important since once lithium batteries get close to 0 degrees the BMS shuts down the battery from charging.

Mike

We have to assume the 14 & 41 & 0 degrees Mike mentioned are in Fahrenheit. Mike says charging will shut off at 0 degrees but Lithionics batteries can't be charged below 32F.

My guess is that most folks who anticipate being off-grid in cold temperatures would opt for Lithionics battery models with the DC Internal Heater Kit - Lithionics-Battery-Heater-Kits-Type-1-Vs-Type-2.pdf - at -4F power consumption was shown to be 52.5Ah per day. That's a huge difference from the xtreme heaters 3A AC which would likely be close to 30A DC when run off a 90% efficient inverter when off-grid. As Booster pointed out, just 10 hours at 50% runtime would be 150Ah DC.

[GeorgeRa]

Ducting hot furnace air would likely be a better solution with this C-class unit, my four-season Bigfoot had hot air ducted to all areas to be protected.
For the electric route I agree that a heated pad would a better option.

[IdleUp]

First Off - all your math on the heater and amperage is just a wild guess because "yours truly" designed the interface which works off the BMS AMPseal connector to control the heaters thermostat at selected temperature levels.

In Addition - The heater's AC circuit is independent of the RVs inverter, so I can control the wattage of the heater through my interface. My system is 100% propriety there's no other like it, as is the ventilating system which I also designed for the coach.

The Heat Blanket - You mentioned would be absolutely worthless for my use because I use the trunk to store my drones used for my professional aerial photography. Both the machines IMU and the lithium batteries need to be kept at proper temperatures.

Is any of this starting to make sense to you guys?

[booster]

Originally Posted by IdleUp

First off - all your math on the heater and amperage is just a wild guess because "yours truly" designed the interface which works off the BMS AMPseal connector to control the heaters thermostat at selected temperature levels.

In Addition - The heater's AC circuit is independent of the RVs inverter, so I can control the wattage of the heater through my interface. My system is 100% propriety there's no other like it, as is the ventilating system which I also designed for the coach.

The heat blanket - You mentioned would be absolutely worthless for my use because I use the trunk to store my drones used for my professional aerial photography. Both the machines IMU and the lithium batteries need to be kept at proper temperatures.

Is any of this starting to make sense to you guys?

Not really any sense, as there are no calculations, no test data, no test conditions, no clarifications on what data we have incorrect, nothing except broad claims with no substantiation.

[IdleUp]

Originally Posted by booster

Not really any sense, as there are no calculations, no test data, no test conditions, no clarifications on what data we have incorrect, nothing except broad claims with no substantiation.

Booster there is such a thing as being Propriety - Why would anyone who spends years designating electronic equipment want to share openly with forum users?

Try calling Lithionics and ask them for a diagrams and data on their BMS and see how far it gets you?

[GeorgeRa]

Booster is asking for energy balance, perhaps you have developed cold fusion battery and it is proprietary and would agree it should stay proprietary. I heard someone in US developed such a battery recently, if I remember correctly it was in Utah.