Impromptu Campers Not Welcome

[RossWilliams]

"This is exactly how the hotel industry has worked for many years"

I have never had a hotel require me to check in by 4:00 or confirm my reservation by then. They almost all have a cancellation deadline after which you pay whether you use the room or not. I am also not aware of any hotel that turns down advance reservations to save rooms for people who just show up.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

.... While I am sure there are exceptions, camping at state parks is generally not a low income activity.

.....

Okee dokee, I have clearly struck out in my effort to make this point, so how about we try taking someone else's word for it instead?

KOA does a random sampling of camper demographics and recently came up with this distribution below -- but note that their analysis is not limited to state parks. This includes all venues, and almost all private camping venues are MORE expensive than state parks.

Even when all venues are considered, about a quarter of the campers are in the lowest income bracket, with annual household income less than $25,000. That's because camping is an activity that can be done on a limited budget, duh. And I reemphasize that they can afford it, duh.

One quarter cannot be described as "generally not a low income activity". One quarter is a lot of people.

And because state parks are less expensive in comparison to private facilities, and because Texas is a state with a heavy first-generation, less-established immigrant population, I'd estimate that low-income campers account for 30% to 40% of our state park visitors, whether day-use or overnight campers. Those are not "exceptions" - that is a lot of people, thank you.

[booster]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

Lets be clear. I have no way to know the hourly wage of someone at a campground or where they were born. What I do know is that $50 is a lot of discretionary money to spend for most people making only $24,000 per year. While I am sure there are exceptions, camping at state parks is generally not a low income activity.

Regardless of their income or nationality, a reservation system likely works better for most people who have a fixed work schedule. There is a reason campgrounds are fully booked on weekends, but often not the rest of the week. I see no reason why some sites should be reserved for those with more flexible schedules who can choose to camp whenever they want.

Anyone who has had an inflexible schedule knows how hard it is to have a real life, be it because you work a backshift or because you never get a chance to plan ahead for anything because you may have to work, or get fired.



We used to see lots of families and others in the state campgrounds driving old minivans and tenting or pulling an old pop up trailer. Not so much anymore. The campground we stay in when we go to Custer State Park S.D. is a relatively small and older one with small sites, and it was mostly filled with tents and pop ups 12 years ago. So much so we referred to it as the "pop up campground". That has changed in recent years to newer trucks and hardside trailers and class C motorhomes.


Whether this is totally because of the reservation rules can't be proven from observational characteristics, but it certainly looks like it probably is related.


I think I would expand even a bit further than Avanti on occupy by 4:00 idea since mid to late afternoon could be tough for waiting to know if sites are going to be available. Maybe require all reservations to be confirmed a day ahead of time along with the 4:00. If confirmed and no show larger penalties would probably be an easier sell. No confirm the day before still penalty but smaller and rest of stay concalled. I also think a 3 strike rule might be needed. 3 no shows or no confirms and not allowed to reserve any more in the state or some such thing as money doesn't seem to be a big deal to many of the make a bunch of reservations and use a couple crowd.

[Gaucho]

Since full timing in Florida since April, I have accumulated a good deal of experience with the state park system here which outsources its reservations to Reserve America. And I am convinced people are gaming the system and that the system needs to adapt.

In Florida, one can reserve “inventory” 11 months ahead of time, and that is exactly what happens with in-demand campgrounds, like the 3 state parks in the Keys. I finally acquiesced and tried reserving a site that far in advance. On the Reserve America website, one can view which sites will be available to book at 8 AM, and I logged in prior to 8 on numerous occasions and would keep hitting the Book Now button starting at 7:59. I would receive errors about it being too soon followed by a message that the site was already booked. Every site that was available would be reserved immediately. I did this for days until giving up, convinced that a program was likely booking the sites or some other shenanigans were in play. Is there a secondary market out there for reserved sites, something akin to scalping?

Additionally, the cancellation fees are very small, so many people are just reserving the sites 11 months out in order to keep their options open. They can then cancel and get most of their money back.

Of course, Reserve America just wants to earn their reservation fees, so a fair and equitable system doesn’t matter to them. So, it’s really on the individual park systems to dictate how they want reservations handled.

My solution to this would be a lottery system that goes something like this… 25% of sites are reservable 11 months ahead of time, but it doesn’t require having the fastest index finger at 8 AM. Rather, the person wanting to reserve would indicate which sites are acceptable, perhaps adding a rank choice, and then winners are randomly chosen by computer at the end of the day. Then, another 25% of sites are made available 6 months in advance. Another 25% 3 months, and the final 25% a week in advance. Anyway, the system would be more equitable to all types of travelers with varying computer knowledge if these two attributes would be added… a lottery system along with site that are released at varying points in advance.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Gaucho

Since full timing in Florida since April, I have accumulated a good deal of experience with the state park system here which outsources its reservations to Reserve America. And I am convinced people are gaming the system and that the system needs to adapt.

In Florida, one can reserve “inventory” 11 months ahead of time, and that is exactly what happens with in-demand campgrounds, like the 3 state parks in the Keys. I finally acquiesced and tried reserving a site that far in advance. On the Reserve America website, one can view which sites will be available to book at 8 AM, and I logged in prior to 8 on numerous occasions and would keep hitting the Book Now button starting at 7:59. I would receive errors about it being too soon followed by a message that the site was already booked. Every site that was available would be reserved immediately. I did this for days until giving up, convinced that a program was likely booking the sites or some other shenanigans were in play. Is there a secondary market out there for reserved sites, something akin to scalping?

Additionally, the cancellation fees are very small, so many people are just reserving the sites 11 months out in order to keep their options open. They can then cancel and get most of their money back.

Of course, Reserve America just wants to earn their reservation fees, so a fair and equitable system doesn’t matter to them. So, it’s really on the individual park systems to dictate how they want reservations handled.

My solution to this would be a lottery system that goes something like this… 25% of sites are reservable 11 months ahead of time, but it doesn’t require having the fastest index finger at 8 AM. Rather, the person wanting to reserve would indicate which sites are acceptable, perhaps adding a rank choice, and then winners are randomly chosen by computer at the end of the day. Then, another 25% of sites are made available 6 months in advance. Another 25% 3 months, and the final 25% a week in advance. Anyway, the system would be more equitable to all types of travelers with varying computer knowledge if these two attributes would be added… a lottery system along with site that are released at varying points in advance.

These are the same points that I have been talking about and I think very true in many places, including the not getting through to reserve.


There is software available, I am told by concert goers, that connects and refreshes so fast it ties up the reservation sites as it reserves the tickets it is after. Scalpers all have it and often have most of the good seats for a show before anybody else even gets through. They then resell them. Sounds just like the campgrounds stories to me. I don't know how much that software costs or where to get it, but all it would take would be one purchase of it by a group of friends to be able to do a lot of grabbing of sites.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

These are the same points that I have been talking about and I think very true in many places, including the not getting through to reserve.


There is software available, I am told by concert goers, that connects and refreshes so fast it ties up the reservation sites as it reserves the tickets it is after. Scalpers all have it and often have most of the good seats for a show before anybody else even gets through. They then resell them. Sounds just like the campgrounds stories to me. I don't know how much that software costs or where to get it, but all it would take would be one purchase of it by a group of friends to be able to do a lot of grabbing of sites.

We have tried reserve in Yosemite and never succeeded.

There is a software for eBay for last second biding, I never used it. https://www.bidnapper.com/?refuser=g...hoCuUgQAvD_BwE

Good summary about getting reservation in California
https://www.adventure-journal.com/20...could-be-bots/

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

We have tried reserve in Yosemite and never succeeded.

There is a software for eBay for last second biding, I never used it. https://www.bidnapper.com/?refuser=g...hoCuUgQAvD_BwE

Good summary about getting reservation in California
https://www.adventure-journal.com/20...could-be-bots/

The ebay software would be the opposite, at the end, so probably couldn't be adapted?


Minnesota did a lottery for the first round of state run covid shots that seemed to work. You applied within a time window for the next drawing and that was it. If you lost, you stayed in for the next rounds without doing anything.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

The ebay software would be the opposite, at the end, so probably couldn't be adapted?


Minnesota did a lottery for the first round of state run covid shots that seemed to work. You applied within a time window for the next drawing and that was it. If you lost, you stayed in for the next rounds without doing anything.

I would prefer if any online system like eBay or Reserve America would be immune to trickery, but it is just my wishful thinking.

[InterBlog]

Another point of reference:

After disastrous system crashes in previous years, the province of Nova Scotia rolled out a new reservation system this year, and booked 7,500 campsite reservations covering the first third of its parks by 1 pm on its opening day. They open up portions of the reservation system on successive days so that the system will not become overloaded.

For the in-demand parks, if a camper is not able to secure a reservation within the first few hours that the park is being booked each year, they generally do not get a spot and they have to try again the following year. With the e-waiting room that has been established, reservations are more-or-less being given out via a form of modified lottery.

[RossWilliams]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Okee dokee, I have clearly struck out in my effort to make this point, so how about we try taking someone else's word for it instead?

KOA does a random sampling of camper demographics and recently came up with this distribution below -- but note that their analysis is not limited to state parks. This includes all venues, and almost all private camping venues are MORE expensive than state parks.

Even when all venues are considered, about a quarter of the campers are in the lowest income bracket, with annual household income less than $25,000. That's because camping is an activity that can be done on a limited budget, duh. And I reemphasize that they can afford it, duh.

One quarter cannot be described as "generally not a low income activity". One quarter is a lot of people.

According to the report, 25% is the United States Census number for households with incomes under $25,000. Among households in the survey, the number who reported they camped in 2020 and had a household income of less than $25,000 was 17%, down from 19% in 2019. That includes people who use free and other low cost campsites which are plentiful. In fact, less than half the campers in the survey reported using either a state or private campground.

[booster]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

According to the report, 25% is the United States Census number for households with incomes under $25,000. Among households in the survey, the number who reported they camped in 2020 and had a household income of less than $25,000 was 17%, down from 19% in 2019. That includes people who use free and other low cost campsites which are plentiful. In fact, less than half the campers in the survey reported using either a state or private campground.

All this statistical manipulation is merely a distraction or diversion.


Bottom line is that a lot people are being frozen out of getting good campsites, including those with flexible schedules and enough resources if they want to get to the top areas. The reasons for getting frozen out go back to poorly designed reservation systems and no desire on the state park side to make the systems more inclusive for all groups, IMO.



Because of the poor systems we all wind up playing the "reserve and hope we can go" game to some degree as none of us know exactly what is going to happen 6-12 months ahead of time. Hopefully those here aren't the abusers who are tying up a lot of sites just in case they want to go sometime and canceling last minute or doing a no show repeatedly, as that is plain selfish and not in the spirit of camping.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by booster

All this statistical manipulation is merely a distraction or diversion.

....

I don't agree. If people are expecting, or at least petitioning for, differential treatment on campsite reservations, I think it's important to consider WHO they are aspiring to displace. Whether it's 20% or 25% or 19.3265987% of lowest income bracket that is among that target group doesn't change the fact that there's a lot of the lowest-income population who are in those cross-hairs. Their presence in the equation is not the only consideration, but it is something that people with grace should keep in mind, I think.

This kind of cognitive bias, which incorporates a strong element of false consensus effect, makes wealthy Class Bers with tech-loaded vans assume that they would be displacing other wealthy Class Bers with tech-loaded vans. But there would be a large number of people with $35 tents in that target group.

There have been times when I have been on the road, had a change of plans, and tried to snag a Texas state park campsite at the last minute, only to be turned away, much like the OP was. At those times, I've said to myself, "Well, that sucks - but I have an off-grid vehicle. I can overnight in in the nearest Walmart parking lot, and come into the park tomorrow on a day pass instead. The person with the $35 tent doesn't have that option, so it's all OK, really."

[booster]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

I don't agree. If people are expecting, or at least petitioning for, differential treatment on campsite reservations, I think it's important to consider WHO they are aspiring to displace. Whether it's 20% or 25% or 19.3265987% of lowest income bracket that is among that target group doesn't change the fact that there's a lot of the lowest-income population who are in those cross-hairs. Their presence in the equation is not the only consideration, but it is something that people with grace should keep in mind, I think.

This kind of cognitive bias, which incorporates a strong element of false consensus effect, makes wealthy Class Bers with tech-loaded vans assume that they would be displacing other wealthy Class Bers with tech-loaded vans. But there would be a large number of people with $35 tents in that target group.

There have been times when I have been on the road, had a change of plans, and tried to snag a Texas state park campsite at the last minute, only to be turned away, much like the OP was. At those times, I've said to myself, "Well, that sucks - but I have an off-grid vehicle. I can overnight in in the nearest Walmart parking lot, and come into the park tomorrow on a day pass instead. The person with the $35 tent doesn't have that option, so it's all OK, really."

I am extremely data driven, an engineer (surprise, surprise) but data of the types given don't relate directly to the issue of the reservation issues, IMO.


If you want to get some relevant data it would not be if folks were foreign born, what ethnicity, or other things of that nature. It would be related to flexibility of their schedules and how that fits into being able to being able to access the camping areas compared to those who have flexibility in their lives. Income is an issue in the current system of reserve a bunch, cancel many of them, take the financial hit, but wouldn't/shouldn't be in a well designed system where the only cancellations happened because of unforeseen circumstances.


The survey given gave data only from those that were able to get and use campsites, it appears. This gives essentially zero information on how many folks were left out of the system because of their circumstances.


Personally, I would think a "person of grace" would support making a system more inclusive.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

……………………
This kind of cognitive bias, which incorporates a strong element of false consensus effect, makes wealthy Class Bers with tech-loaded vans assume that they would be displacing other wealthy Class Bers with tech-loaded vans. But there would be a large number of people with $35 tents in that target group…………………

Is this your theses? Seems as meandering around the actual problem - lack of a reservation system designed for current market conditions, too many folks and not enough campsites.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by avanti

I agree. That is why I favor a "4:00PM occupancy or reconfirmation" policy. Easy to do and little burden on anybody.

Can anybody guess why this approach hasn't been tried in Texas (and probably elsewhere)?

In part, because a large percentage of remote parks are situated in cellular white holes. E.g.,

- South Llano River State Park? Total white hole, and for miles around it, too. At the point of my visit, I was running cellular GPS only, which meant that I was kaput, and it took me an extra 45 minutes to find my way because my map disappeared. Lesson learned - shortly after that fiasco, I bought a $400 Garmin to augment my cell-dependent method.

- Monahans Sandhills State Park? Total white hole (in fact I blogged about it).

- Big Bend Ranch State Park? Good grief! As soon as you leave Fort Stockton, coverage gets really sketchy. And it's 190 miles from Fort Stockton to BBRSP!

How are people supposed to call in a confirmation that they are en route but running late when they cannot get a cell signal in the areas surrounding a lot of these places, which are remote by intention?? Hello!!

It's not just the campers who need connectivity if an idea like that can be made to function. A lot of the park staff, to whose cellphones calls are sometimes made to roll, cannot receive those calls. They don't just sit on the desk continually, especially near closing time. They move around the park checking on people and things.

It's not as easy and un-burdensome as it might first appear. Can you imagine a distraught family with young children, running late and pulling up at a state park gate, having spent the past hour trying desperately to call in, only to be told "We gave your site away despite the fact that you paid in full for it"? Nope - not gonna happen.

[booster]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Can anybody guess why this approach hasn't been tried in Texas (and probably elsewhere)?

In part, because a large percentage of remote parks are situated in cellular white holes. E.g.,

- South Llano River State Park? Total white hole, and for miles around it, too. At the point of my visit, I was running cellular GPS only, which meant that I was kaput, and it took me an extra 45 minutes to find my way because my map disappeared. Lesson learned - shortly after that fiasco, I bought a $400 Garmin to augment my cell-dependent method.

- Monahans Sandhills State Park? Total white hole (in fact I blogged about it).

- Big Bend Ranch State Park? Good grief! As soon as you leave Fort Stockton, coverage gets really sketchy. And it's 190 miles from Fort Stockton to BBRSP!

How are people supposed to call in a confirmation that they are en route but running late when they cannot get a cell signal in the areas surrounding a lot of these places, which are remote by intention?? Hello!!

It's not just the campers who need connectivity if an idea like that can be made to function. A lot of the park staff, to whose cellphones calls are sometimes made to roll, cannot receive those calls. They don't just sit on the desk continually, especially near closing time. They move around the park checking on people and things.

It's not as easy and un-burdensome as it might first appear. Can you imagine a distraught family with young children, running late and pulling up at a state park gate, having spent the past hour trying desperately to call in, only to be told "We gave your site away despite the fact that you paid in full for it"? Nope - not gonna happen.

All they need to do is have a landline available at the park, we have seen this several places in South Dakota that have no cell surface. Not an issue, IMO. If you show up with no reservation and sites are open, you use the free phone to call in to get set up. Would be the same for a confirm/check in.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

All they need to do is have a landline available at the park, we have seen this several places in South Dakota that have no cell surface. Not an issue, IMO. If you show up with no reservation and sites are open, you use the free phone to call in to get set up. Would be the same for a confirm/check in.

An example, no cell but landline https://stateparks.oregon.gov/index....file&parkId=85

[markopolo]

Interesting report about National Park reservations here: Understanding Campsite Reservations in National Parks - https://media.rff.org/archive/files/...port_Final.pdf

Lots of reservations made as soon as permitted then it appears that much of it returns to inventory due to cancellations and reserved again by others but much closer to the actual dates of stay.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Interesting report about National Park reservations here: Understanding Campsite Reservations in National Parks - https://media.rff.org/archive/files/...port_Final.pdf

Lots of reservations made as soon as permitted then it appears that much of it returns to inventory due to cancellations and reserved again by others but much closer to the actual dates of stay.

Lots of good information in that report, I think. It addresses many of the things we have been discussing here. The one omission would be much harder to get data on, I think, and that is how many people are missing out because of the shown big initial reservations and not being able to watch for cancellations later when they can schedule? Those people don't show up in the surveys of those that did get a reservation and used it.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by booster

All they need to do is have a landline available at the park,....

...plus a landline available to be put into the hand of the camper who needs to call in. Which in remote areas can be impossible to find.

I suppose a camper could try knocking on the door of a random house, but people stopped the "Can I use your phone?" thing decades ago. Nobody is comfortable with that now.