Hymer to Exhibit Grand Canyon ‘B’ at Elkhart Open House

[ClassB4Me]

I think there is an untapped market for those of us who want four-season capability and the simplicity of cassette toilet. If these items hold true, I will be one of the 1st NA buyers.

[Nomad32]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

I think there is an untapped market for those of us who want four-season capability and the simplicity of cassette toilet. If these items hold true, I will be one of the 1st NA buyers.

Agreed. Four seasons would be awesome.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by stanw909

Why only one floorplan? Have they never seen Travato 59k?Rumor has it that even Roadtrek is thinking about making one.

But no US Rv in that vehicle/length has that floorplan! I would be happy. That is the floorplan that interests me, not the G or the K. Bring it on!

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by BobB

That is very interesting. I guess if you want to produce RVs, send them to dealers and sell to the general public, you have to jump through a lot of hoops. One also probably needs all these certifications to even talk with dealers and setting up a network.

That could explain why small conversion companies - Sportmobile, Advanced RV, Safari Condo, and others -deal one on one with customers.

Advanced RV has an RVIA Certification. ARV deals one on one because they prefer satisfying customers directly. It is that simple and I am guessing the business plan does not need dealers. You are all reading too much into the dealer model of sales.

[Davydd]

I camped at 5 degrees F. and 4 straight days at day and night below freezing in boondocking situations. Does that qualify as 4 season?

[BobB]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Advanced RV has an RVIA Certification. ARV deals one on one because they prefer satisfying customers directly. It is that simple and I am guessing the business plan does not need dealers. You are all reading too much into the dealer model of sales.

Davydd,

I may have jumped to that conclusion when someone stated something about Hymer needing certifications in each state. Thought maybe that was needed to set up a nationwide dealer network. Or maybe it is only for each state where you have a dealer. Is that true? Do you know anything about that?

[ClassB4Me]

It probably does it you are using water and toilet services on-board. However, if the price of entry is $110,000+ it may be beyond the reach of many.

[BobB]

According to their website Hymer is going to the 53rd Annual National RV Trade Show in Louisville, KY in early December. My guess is it looks like they are gauging interest from dealers, before they start showing to the public. Just a guess.

[Davydd]

If you want to compromise your desires that is your choice. Cost is not that big of a factor. Over 9 years of buying two new Bs my annual out of pocket cost of original price ownership was $2,700 and both Bs were traded in to a dealer. I could maybe have done better with private sales.You do eventually sell your B. My third B had no compromises. I got exactly what I wanted and will have no one to blame but myself and my inevitable changing desires. So far so good. We will be in Newfoundland and Labrador at least a week boondocking with no dumping, water fills or electricity. If you want to compromise your desires that is your choice. Cost is not that big of a factor. Over 9 years of buying two new Bs my annual out of pocket cost of original price ownership was $2,700 and both Bs were traded in to a dealer. I could maybe have done better with private sales.You do eventually sell your B. My third B had no compromises. I got exactly what I wanted and will have no one to blame but myself and my inevitable changing desires. So far so good. We will be in Newfoundland and Labrador at least a week boondocking with no dumping, water fills or electricity. The service campgrounds are closed. This is more primitive remote I don't know if any other B could manage that including the eco treks. It is all about capacities and 40 gallons water, 26 gallons grey and 18 gallons black having been averaging 10 days for us. I know Promasters cannot come close to those capacities. Electrical remains full use of everything in the B transparently sans hookups.

[wincrasher]

10 days is a lot! With a bit more than half those capacities, I can't manage being out that long - but I'm only 1 person, so my consumption should be 1/2 of yours. About 5 days is it and I thought I was doing really well. I always fill grey first, then run out of fresh water second, and then finally fill the poo tank. I'm not above dumping the grey out on the ground, but not the black. So it always comes down to needing fresh water.

Power issues aside. I have plenty of power - it's just noisy. I only need to fill the LP a couple times a year.

I think with the Hymer, that order would change. The poo is only 3 or 5 gallons. I'd need to dump that in 3 days probably. So that would be the limiting factor. All else would be the same.

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by Davydd

If you want to compromise your desires that is your choice. Cost is not that big of a factor. Over 9 years of buying two new Bs my annual out of pocket cost of original price ownership was $2,700 and both Bs were traded in to a dealer. I could maybe have done better with private sales.You do eventually sell your B...

Davydd, wouldn't it be fair to say the negligible depreciation you experienced was due to a very unique time in the B world? When the price of a new B is rapidly increasing year after year, trading in your slightly used B for close to it's original sticker price should be easy to do. This is one of those 'if it can't go on, it won't go on' situations.

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by BobB

That is very interesting. I guess if you want to produce RVs, send them to dealers and sell to the general public, you have to jump through a lot of hoops. One also probably needs all these certifications to even talk with dealers and setting up a network.

That could explain why small conversion companies - Sportmobile, Advanced RV, Safari Condo, and others -deal one on one with customers.

I think it's interesting that Hymer's first inclination is to get into the dealer-based RV market. I would think it'd be easier to sell those directly to their customers. More pricing flexibility, ability to make modest custom mods for individual customers, no dealer hassle/sharing profits.... Perhaps it's just a generational thing (mid-30's here), but selling direct to the customer feels like a better experience all around.

[wincrasher]

I think in some states it's illegal to sell direct. Tesla has had this problem.

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I think in some states it's illegal to sell direct. Tesla has had this problem.

Good point. If manufacturers started moving towards direct sales and had a lot of success with that approach, I bet it'd become illegal in far more states pretty quickly too.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I think in some states it's illegal to sell direct. Tesla has had this problem.

That is just lobbyist protectionism. It just means constituents have less say than those with money. That also makes dealers more important to converters than consumers and why you can only buy what dealers are willing to sell. That is arrested development. All this means is a company cannot set up a sales office and staff in those states and sell direct. You can still buy the product no matter where you live. It might just be more inconvenient. With so few B dealers it might not be all that inconvenient. A Minnesota customer would have better access to an Advanced RV or Sportsmobile than Coach House Arriva.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Transit

Davydd, wouldn't it be fair to say the negligible depreciation you experienced was due to a very unique time in the B world? When the price of a new B is rapidly increasing year after year, trading in your slightly used B for close to it's original sticker price should be easy to do. This is one of those 'if it can't go on, it won't go on' situations.

When are times never unique? Yes, but there also might come a time where B ownership could be prohibitive. I ordered my B a year and a half ago and dealer oriented converters are just now coming on board (but not there yet) with features I have. In my retirement I don't have that luxury of waiting for the next great thing. I will be passing 20,000 miles in just 8 months sometime this week.

[avanti]

The "direct sales vs dealer network" issue is interesting. Although I personally come down on the side of allowing direct sales, it is by no means a no-brainer. The recent apparent demise of GWV and the alleged fact that at least one direct-purchaser got caught in the lurch is a sobering example of the downside of the direct-sales model. One of the legitimate functions of the dealer model is to insulate the end-purchaser from this kind of thing. It is telling that very quickly after that incident became public, ARV felt it necessary to defend their financial stability in a carefully-worded video. I see no particular reason to doubt the financial stability of any of the current crop of direct-sales-with-deposit vendors, but before the fact, I had no particular reason to doubt GWV's stability either, and I had more information than most. There are real financial risks involved in writing a check prior to delivery with any such vendor. Evaluating the magnitude of those risks is not trivial.

N.B.: DavyDD is correct that the existing pro-dealer state laws are directed at selling direct, not buying direct. Tesla runs afoul of the law only when they set up a sales presence in the affected states. So, for example, ARV would only have potential issues with an Ohio law, and then only when selling to Ohio customers. (I have no idea of whether Ohio has such a law--just a hypothetical example).

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by Davydd

When are times never unique? Yes, but there also might come a time where B ownership could be prohibitive. I ordered my B a year and a half ago and dealer oriented converters are just now coming on board (but not there yet) with features I have. In my retirement I don't have that luxury of waiting for the next great thing. I will be passing 20,000 miles in just 8 months sometime this week.

I by no means meant to criticize your purchases or timing. I really appreciate people like you who are pushing RV technology forward and forcing prices down for the rest of us (not being sarcastic; it’s just a slow process and fortunately I have time to wait). Just imagine how expensive Alvar would have been if Advanced RV didn’t have enough customers to exist.

All periods are unique but some are dangerously so if people make decisions that rely on the trend continuing. Many home buyers (hopefully) learned this lesson the hard way a few years ago. Over the next decade I think there’s a good chance B price increases will need to return to the mean. So for those of us still in the accumulation stage, assuming little to no depreciation is a very dangerous gamble.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by avanti

The "direct sales vs dealer network" issue is interesting. Although I personally come down on the side of allowing direct sales, it is by no means a no-brainer. The recent apparent demise of GWV and the alleged fact that at least one direct-purchaser got caught in the lurch is a sobering example of the downside of the direct-sales model. One of the legitimate functions of the dealer model is to insulate the end-purchaser from this kind of thing. It is telling that very quickly after that incident became public, ARV felt it necessary to defend their financial stability in a carefully-worded video. I see no particular reason to doubt the financial stability of any of the current crop of direct-sales-with-deposit vendors, but before the fact, I had no particular reason to doubt GWV's stability either, and I had more information than most. There are real financial risks involved in writing a check prior to delivery with any such vendor. Evaluating the magnitude of those risks is not trivial.

N.B.: DavyDD is correct that the existing pro-dealer state laws are directed at selling direct, not buying direct. Tesla runs afoul of the law only when they set up a sales presence in the affected states. So, for example, ARV would only have potential issues with an Ohio law, and then only when selling to Ohio customers. (I have no idea of whether Ohio has such a law--just a hypothetical example).

I couldn't agree more. But I am unsure if Jim's comments were related to a dealer network or if they were safety/DOT type certifications. He rattled off a list of applicable codes and then got into all the stuff RVIA and the Canadians have to certify too. Admittedly, I wasn't paying all that much attention. He seemed to be implying that they (Hymer) thought it was going to be a cake-walk to get set up and start selling, and it's turned out to be anything but.

If all that is required, how are some of these boutique outfitters able to sell their wares? There are a handful of converters we have mentioned from time to time, but I don't recall any discussion if their RV's are "legal". I didn't bother to check or ask if MidWest was RVIA certified either.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

If all that is required, how are some of these boutique outfitters able to sell their wares? There are a handful of converters we have mentioned from time to time, but I don't recall any discussion if their RV's are "legal". I didn't bother to check or ask if MidWest was RVIA certified either.

Heh. After we owned our Legend for almost a year, one day my wife was getting in and suddenly said "what is that ugly silver sticker on our van?" Of course, she was referring to the RVIA certification badge. As this incident illustrates, I doubt that such certification has any significant impact on the typical buyer. OTOH, it does bring with it a whole bunch of requirements that are analogous to building codes. Compliance to these recognized codes is probably important in a liability defense, and so is most likely considered necessary from the upfitters' lawyers' perspective.