Hymer Extended Length Models

[markopolo]

I'd have no problem with cherry/granite/black leather. Congrats to the purchaser, it sounds like she had been looking for a while and found what she wanted.

I didn't know it was pronounced Akteev and Echo-trek. I thought it was Active and Eeko-trek. I guess I haven't been watching the vids.

My take on George's comments is that he's very disappointed that this more traditional NA styling appears to be a notable departure from early reports:

Quote from Giovanni Marcon in RV Business - Hymer to Exhibit Grand Canyon ‘B’ at Open House | RV Business :

“They said it could only be done with a long-term view, with a strategic approach — and by remaining distinctly European or, in our case, by being German, not by trying to imitate the American product,” he noted. “The American manufacturers are very good at what they do.

“We believed that, if we are going to approach the American market, we would do so by remaining German — with German engineering, a German product, and by bringing our flavor of European design to the U.S."

but he resigned in Sept 2015 -

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f5...html#post36480

First and foremost, EHGNA has to build units here that folks want to buy. If potential purchasers show sufficient interest in the German/European design and styling then we'll see those units being built and marketed.

It's early days still. I wouldn't be too worried about the German/European design and styling disappearing completely.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by avanti

Not to get all legal or anything, but by my reading of the Terms of Service of this site, posters retain copyright to their individual contributions. Therefore, any reposting of a thread would appear to require the individual permission of each contributor.

I realize that the pragmatics of the situation are different from the legalities, and it is good advice to simply assume that on the net, Anything Goes. But it doesn't hurt to state the actual law once in awhile.

Nice to see that but as you said and I noted, in reality there is no privacy and the posts here are easily found by anyone interested in seeing them.

I felt it was inappropriate however to repost comments made here by other people on Facebook without permission.

I did not appreciate my comments here reposted on Facebook with a large picture of Jim Hammill as the photo on the reposted thread. My comments in this case were an attempt at humor but that has made no difference in the past in terms of getting yourself removed from groups on Facebook.

If someone wants to go on a mission to correct what they see as a bad decision by the head of a company then more power to them but I don't think it is appropriate to drag other people along on the mission involuntarily. In other words, why repost the entire thread?

Enough said by me. As I stated in my first post, this was just a reminder to me to avoid making comments here, even in jest, that I wouldn't want made public.

Of course, in the grand scheme of things, this is a first world issue, not of much actual significance...

[BobB]

Originally Posted by markopolo

First and foremost, EHGNA has to build units here that folks want to buy. If potential purchasers show sufficient interest in the German/European design and styling then we'll see those units being built and marketed.

It's early days still. I wouldn't be too worried about the German/European design and styling disappearing completely.

At Hershey I talked to a number of people who liked the lighter, modern look of the Aktiv and the trailers. Surprised that someone like RT doesn't offer a "lighter" wood (the Ivory doesn't cut it IMO - looks artificial) that is representative of North America, like "Canadian Maple"?

Like the selection of colors, etc. that Pleasureway offers.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by BobB

At Hershey I talked to a number of people who liked the lighter, modern look of the Aktiv and the trailers. Surprised that someone like RT doesn't offer a "lighter" wood (the Ivory doesn't cut it IMO - looks artificial) that is representative of North America, like "Canadian Maple"?

Like the selection of colors, etc. that Pleasureway offers.

I hope that it is clear when you enter a Hymer branded product sold over here that the design and materials are consistent throughout and in keeping with the modern design elements found in the European products. I would be disappointed to find a mishmash of stuff, some things not consistent with that goal. Are darker interiors appropriate if they are a customer preference over here and not in Europe? The market drives this but the final design should still retain the elements needed to make it obvious it is a Hymer and not another brand.

As I noted before, there is a light colored cherry interior on the Touring trailers that is available but if a darker cherry is a costumer desire then I would be disappointed if they simply used the traditional cherry from the Roadtrek models and did not use a material in keeping with the Hymer look. Just my opinion.

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by markopolo

...
My take on George's comments is that he's very disappointed that this more traditional NA styling appears to be a notable departure from early reports... ...I wouldn't be too worried about the German/European design and styling disappearing completely.

Yes Markopolo I'm terribly disappointed. I also hope it will be an isolated event but I have doubts. Customers finally get what they want. What's familiar to them. They reproduce their environment. The market rules. The management is happy, they were right about the NA market tastes. Nothing really changes.

Let's face it, an RV is also a home. Why would German designers dictate what is good for the North American market? Let everyone decide how to decorate their home. Right? That's the interesting dilemma in the RV world.

Incremental changes? Maybe that's the way to go. I'm very curious to see how all this will evolve.

I have to explain my personal story related to this "Aktiv-Cherry-Granite-Power-Sofa" case. Because I understand now that we are in a "private forum" and no one will post my comments without my consent even if everyone on the internet can access this info. Thanks Avanti for pointing to the Terms of service of this Forum and I respect Greg's opinion that he doesn't want the world to know that we might witness the birth of a very funny Frankenhymer AKTIV . I can't remove his quote on my post but will gladly ask to have it removed if it can be done.

When we signed a contract to buy an Agile back in 2013 I asked Roadtrek if they could build the van WITHOUT the generator, the leaking bathroom sink, the wardrobe, the cherry cabinets doors, the granite countertops and the two-tone power sofa! I just wanted the bathroom and the kitchen layout on 4 Sprinter wheels.

Of course they couldn't do it all so I settled for what they could offer me after visiting the plant (see photo) (with a paperstone countertop)




When the van arrived, two months later, the ugly two-tone sofa was still there and they added a couple of other mods without my consent. I figured that if we couldn't agree when purchasing a 100K van (after spending two days visiting the plant in Kitchener) what would be the situation when asking for warranty repairs! I canceled the contract in favor of the new Safari Condo's ProMaster that was being prototyped.

Very glad I made that though choice, loosing my down payment but winning an extraordinary van that fits our lifestyle and our tastes.

That might explain my very strong reaction to that customer BTO purchase!

[BobB]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I hope that it is clear when you enter a Hymer branded product sold over here that the design and materials are consistent throughout and in keeping with the modern design elements found in the European products.

I really like the light color/material palettes of Hymer for their vans. (and the much lighter cherry - or is it pearwood? - on the trailers). Lighter colors just make the interior look larger, more spacious IMO. I would buy it. It is a look that is now quite prevalent on sailboats, particularly the European designs, and selling quite well in NA. I was just looking for a alternative ground for RT, so they don't just fall back on the RT palette. Then we would end up with RT and Hymer looking the same, but a different layout.

[booster]

We also hope that Hymer and Roadtrek don't start to look the same, and like the current trends in North American class b's.

I do think there is somewhat of a recent (8? years maybe) in the NA vans in that the older units on the Dodges, Chevies, Fords, were more like the European units in that they were not "open" and tried to use all the space available for something useful. Most also used lighter colors like oak, maple, or white painted cabinetry and tan or grey upholstery. Our 07 C190P Roadtrek really has very little in common with a 24' Sprinter that probably doesn't have as much storage space as we do because of all the openness. It looks and feels more like the European vans.

We were "lucky" in that we got one of the very last Roadtreks that used the maple interior, as we really don't like anything dark that we have seen. It does have the darker granite, which would be better for us if it was the white version, but we live with that. Tan leather and van interior. Aisle shower so no wasted bathroom space, which is fine with us.

We are looking forward to seeing some of the newer, more Euro, styles when we get a chance. The probably will match our tastes better than the "power sofa, cherry, granite" (and we would add "very open" current NA trends. My guess will be that the major thing we won't like would be the cassette toilet

[gregmchugh]

Here are pictures of the cherry interior in the Touring campers. This seems to me to be something that would be a good choice for the Aktiv vs the traditional cherry wood used in the Roadtrek models.

https://www.hymer.com/de/service-und...e=998&dl=start

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Here are pictures of the cherry interior in the Touring campers. This seems to me to be something that would be a good choice for the Aktiv vs the traditional cherry wood used in the Roadtrek models.

https://www.hymer.com/de/service-und...e=998&dl=start

Yes I agree Greg, a lot better than RT's "colonial cherry cabinets" but still dated. Looks like a brochure from the 80's. The RV culture worldwide is very much behind what's trendy in the architecture and design world. I am well aware that I will never be very happy design-wise with what's offered in the RV world but I firmly believe that there's work to do to make it more appealing to a broader public. To educate people (that's what I do for work *). To offer them alternatives. But maybe that's a very long shot. It won't happen instantly.


*I work at the Design Centre at UQAM (a university in Montreal) as an exhibition designer. Far far from the wonderful world of RVs! I also occasionally give lectures on my new hobby https://centrelab.smugmug.com/PERSO-GL/DESS/n-rzLcr/






Screen captures from where I work as an exhibition designer
http://centrededesign.smugmug.com


Now you know all about me!

[gregmchugh]

The solution I think is to use the Hymer manufacturing capabilities to allow a wide range of options including interior color options for the wood, fabric, countertops, etc. If you can deliver these options fairly quickly from the factory for customer orders and If you can do this and have a good number of floorplan options on different length vans then you have a clear advantage over the competition. You are positioning yourself between the rest of the pack and the custom builders. There is clearly room for more efficiency in the overall manufacturing process and the resulting reduction in waste provides the opportunity for options in pricing to improve profitability. The market will decide how much of a price premium is justified for this order flexibility but with improvements in manufacturing efficiency and reduced warranty costs with quality improvements there will be more flexibility in pricing.

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

The solution I think is to use the Hymer manufacturing capabilities to allow a wide range of options including interior color options for the wood, fabric, countertops, etc. If you can deliver these options fairly quickly from the factory for customer orders and If you can do this and have a good number of floorplan options on different length vans then you have a clear advantage over the competition. You are positioning yourself between the rest of the pack and the custom builders. There is clearly room for more efficiency in the overall manufacturing process and the resulting reduction in waste provides the opportunity for options in pricing to improve profitability. The market will decide how much of a price premium is justified for this order flexibility but with improvements in manufacturing efficiency and reduced warranty costs with quality improvements there will be more flexibility in pricing.

That would be the ideal scenario, but the lower costs you have for the European campers can be achieved traditionally only with high volume and very standardized manufacturing. On-demand-manufacturing solutions exists in highly robotized plants but you rarely can justify the investments for low-tech labor intensive manufacturing of class Bs (see Tesla windshield factory). Maybe in the future?

You don't see manufacturers in Europe offering to change everything in a van like the EHG did for that special customer.



Tesla windshield state-of-the-art plant in Peru!

Tesla windscreen factory in Peru features coloured glass fittings




.

[gregmchugh]

Not sure high volumes or robotics are a requirement to efficiently manufacture with a large number of options?

Take a look at the HymerCar price list and consider the advantage of being able to do this level of flexibility over here. Actually a little simpler over here since many of the options probably don't make sense over here.

https://www.hymer.com/en/service-and...&type%5B%5D=60

[GeorgeB]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Not sure high volumes or robotics are a requirement to efficiently manufacture with a large number of options?

Take a look at the HymerCar price list and consider the advantage of being able to do this level of flexibility over here. Actually a little simpler over here since many of the options probably don't make sense over here.

https://www.hymer.com/en/service-and...&type%5B%5D=60

I agree, they have a lot of accessories and upholstery options and use very sophisticated industrialized manufacturing techniques but the choices in wood finishes and layouts are limited. Only one floor plan per van and only one wood finish across the whole line-up.








You might have seen the video of the making of a Pössl van.

Making a class B van is still avery labor intensive activity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhzJNYaLiBg

.

[gregmchugh]

If the market desires more wood finish options and you have just-in-time production of the cabinetry it is not a big problem to do it...

[gregmchugh]

Actually they have two floor plans on the long van, two on the medium length van, and one each on the short and really short vans...

Who else over here builds this many floor plan options?

[gregmchugh]

The workers need to have clear documented procedures for assembling each floorplan and any options that effect assembly.

The just-in-time process gets the right pieces to the assembly station with the right wood finish, fabric choice, etc.

This is not rocket science, just the application of modern lean manufacturing methods.

[BobB]

Options - The one that caught my eye was the upgrade from a 90L fuel tank to a 120L tank!

That would be really nice!

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by BobB

Options - The one that caught my eye was the upgrade from a 90L fuel tank to a 120L tank!

That would be really nice!

I wonder if that is a Fiat Ducato chassis option in Europe vs an option installed by Hymer, what size tanks are available from RAM on the Promaster?

[BobB]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I wonder if that is a Fiat Ducato chassis option in Europe vs an option installed by Hymer, what size tanks are available from RAM on the Promaster?

It is listed on the price list under "Basis" along with things like exterior finishes, wheels and tyres, rain sensors, etc. as opposed to "Outfitting" - Truma, poptops, awnings, heated tanks, etc. My guess is those things under Basis are Fiat Ducato items and those under Outfitting are Hymer. Would not surprise me that Fiat Ducatos in Europe have different options than in NA.

[Marley]

The difference is that Europe only has small RV's.
N.A. has a huge range of sizes (all with cherry cabinets)...
If a lot of people start buying Class B's we will see changes.

I heard of a company who was making a system to attach modules to B van structural elements. Kind of like what we call uni-strut in the M&E industry. Can't recall the name but seems logical.