Hymer Aktiv?

[Marley]

I like a lot of this product but I guess for me having a turbo diesel, and being able to run appliances off, that is important and so is the towing capacity.
Don't like the bed setup either.
Compromises are fine - I just need to get down to what ones are not allowable under the marital commitment first.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by BobB

Not questioning your point, but listen again. "shuts off at 13.8 volts" not 12.8. Does that make any difference?

Sorry, I thought I heard 12.8. Doesn't really effect my point - as I was more concerned with it coming on at 12.1.

Granted, the curve on lithiums is flat for a much longer time, with a crash in the high 11's at the end. Considering you can buy SOC measuring kit for only a couple hundred bucks at retail, they choose to measure on voltage. I mean, the tech package on the Aktiv (Ecotrek, Voltrek, Eng Generator & solar) is $14,000! They can't throw in a shunt?

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Sorry, I thought I heard 12.8. Doesn't really effect my point - as I was more concerned with it coming on at 12.1.

Granted, the curve on lithiums is flat for a much longer time, with a crash in the high 11's at the end. Considering you can buy SOC measuring kit for only a couple hundred bucks at retail, they choose to measure on voltage. I mean, the tech package on the Aktiv (Ecotrek, Voltrek, Eng Generator & solar) is $14,000! They can't throw in a shunt?

As I pointed out earlier in my response to your post, it really doesn't make much difference what voltage is used to trigger Voltstart or whether you use voltage instead of state of charge to trigger, you can get the maximum energy using a wide range of trigger voltages.

Did you read my response or do you just ignore everything I say now that I have been given a lifetime time out from your Facebook group...

With the modular design of the Ecotrek battery system and the fact that the individual Ecotrek modules can be online and offline individually, a single shunt on the overall battery bank is pretty useless. A shunt is needed in each Ecotrek module (it may already be there but not used as yet) and then the battery state of charge for the overall battery bank determined at a central location using the state of charge info from each module. Each module has a receptacle for the switch panel cable but there may well be other uses for this connection, in fact, it is reported that dealer technicians have a diagnostic tool that connects to the module through this connection and it may allow communication between each module and a centralized display and control system.

I think the resurrection of a new version of the Coach Connect option may be an opportunity to provide overall state of charge but I hope there is a low end version without the bells and whistles as an option for owners who don't want anything but displays and controls.

[booster]

I don't think you will see a monitor or other SOC readout on any of the Ecotrek stuff until they get rid of the parasitic losses and put them all on line all the time. Having them on and off individually is just a bandaid so they don't all go dead on their own from the parasitic.

Roadtrek doesn't want anyone to be able watch their batteries quickly go down in SOC when nothing is running.

The surprising thing is that Hymer's engineers haven't pushed for a fix, and got in place, yet.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by booster

I don't think you will see a monitor or other SOC readout on any of the Ecotrek stuff until they get rid of the parasitic losses and put them all on line all the time. Having them on and off individually is just a bandaid so they don't all go dead on their own from the parasitic.

Roadtrek doesn't want anyone to be able watch their batteries quickly go down in SOC when nothing is running.

The surprising thing is that Hymer's engineers haven't pushed for a fix, and got in place, yet.

Actually, it appears they have reduced the BMS parasitic loss significantly down to 20 watts or likely less from the 60 watts shown in the Power Budget document you can find on the website. This lower draw appears to be at least on Version E Ecotreks (possibly even earlier but Jim stated it is on Version E when asked on Facebook) and later. If I get confirmed info from Roadtrek on the numbers I will be updating the info in the Ecotrek Management document I am putting together for the Roadtrek & Hymers Owners Group. Feel free to join the group...

Here is the info from Jim if you can get to Facebook posts on Roadtreking...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/road...h=a2F0eg%3D%3D

[BobB]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

........ for the Roadtrek & Hymers Owners Group. Feel free to join the group...

Is that on FB?

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by BobB

Is that on FB?

Yes, on Facebook...

[Sailedaway]

This Roadtrek and HYymers Owners group - is it only available on face book. I am not involved with facebook. Does that preclude me from joining it or looking at it.
Thanks

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Sailedaway

This Roadtrek and HYymers Owners group - is it only available on face book. I am not involved with facebook. Does that preclude me from joining it or looking at it.
Thanks

It is a closed group on Facebook so you have to join Facebook and join the group in order to see any posts.

This is the same as several other Class B groups on Facebook.

Open groups can be seen by anyone but I think you need to join Facebook to see the posts unless the admins for the group have you blocked.

[BobB]

Reading back on these posts, specifically the "how about a bed up front for the kids, etc. " Being able to have a decent extra bed for guests or children seems to come up often. Anyway, I remember seeing one that IMO really worked. Not the "across the front seat" type like Hymer and not the Travato "take this cushion off, put it here, now put in this strut and take the cushion stored elsewhere and put it there, etc. ". Then I remembered

Westfalia Columbus (Fiat Duucato base). Dinette seat unfolds and flips over make a bed. This is optional, not standard. Have not seen one in person, but it does seem like an elegant solution. Option on both lengths of Columbus - 6m with transverse read bed and 6.4m with lengthwise rear beds. They call it a "double" but still looking for actual dimensions; floor plan shown for some idea of scale of the bed.

Photos are screenshots from catalog.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by BobB

Westfalia Columbus (Fiat Duucato base). Dinette seat unfolds and flips over make a bed.

The lower bed of the Sprinter-based Airstream Westfalia (James Cook in Europe) was similar.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

As I pointed out earlier in my response to your post, it really doesn't make much difference what voltage is used to trigger Voltstart or whether you use voltage instead of state of charge to trigger, you can get the maximum energy using a wide range of trigger voltages.

Did you read my response or do you just ignore everything I say now that I have been given a lifetime time out from your Facebook group...

With the modular design of the Ecotrek battery system and the fact that the individual Ecotrek modules can be online and offline individually, a single shunt on the overall battery bank is pretty useless. A shunt is needed in each Ecotrek module (it may already be there but not used as yet) and then the battery state of charge for the overall battery bank determined at a central location using the state of charge info from each module. Each module has a receptacle for the switch panel cable but there may well be other uses for this connection, in fact, it is reported that dealer technicians have a diagnostic tool that connects to the module through this connection and it may allow communication between each module and a centralized display and control system.

I think the resurrection of a new version of the Coach Connect option may be an opportunity to provide overall state of charge but I hope there is a low end version without the bells and whistles as an option for owners who don't want anything but displays and controls.

I read your post and I don't agree with your nonsensical rationalization of their kludge of a design.

I also don't appreciate your chastisement of George earlier in the thread either as if you are in some position to make good on your threats or why you think you need to threaten anyone with repercussions in the groups, as you did me earlier this week.

[BBQ]

.


LOL

My troll detector is wailing.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I read your post and I don't agree with your nonsensical rationalization of their kludge of a design.

I also don't appreciate your chastisement of George earlier in the thread either as if you are in some position to make good on your threats or why you think you need to threaten anyone with repercussions in the groups, as you did me earlier this week.

My, my...

The fact is that the Voltstart system provides exactly the same performance as a system that uses state of charge for triggering engine starts. Not a rationalization, just a fact. Sometimes a simple design gets the job done just fine.

I don't feel I chastised George and if he feels that way, I apologize to him...

I did express my displeasure with having my comments in this group reposted in public outside this group which I think is a valid complaint given the rules of this forum...

I don't believe I threatened anyone with removal from any group, in fact, I have no power to do that since I am not an admin or moderator of any group and I don't generally agree with removing anyone from any group except for spammers. I simply pointed out the clear fact that people have been removed from a certain Facebook group for comments made outside that group in case George was not aware of it. I didn't threaten you either, I simply expressed my surprise that you were still a member of that certain group given your regular negative opinions about several of the main people in that group.

This coming from the same person who expressed regret that he had not thought of getting someone's Facebook history wiped out by reporting they were using an alias for a Facebook name before someone else did it. Wiped out hundreds of posts with very useful info for owners and you thought that was a hoot. Give me a large break...

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

The fact is that the Voltstart system provides exactly the same performance as a system that uses state of charge for triggering engine starts. Not a rationalization, just a fact. Sometimes a simple design gets the job done just fine.

I don't think that I would agree with that statement, although in some cases it could be correct.

A voltage trigger is just not going to be all that accurate, as lithium batteries have such a flat curve on discharge and recharge, so you would need to have more safety factor on each end.

If you are just cycling in the the center +/- of the SOC of the batteries with the van sitting somewhere it is OK to run, you would be essentially the same both ways.

In other ways, I think it would be be better to have the SOC trigger, especially if it was settable. There could be times you want to keep the batteries near full in anticipation of being somewhere the engine can't be run, so you would set it to start at maybe 60%, but other times you might want to let it run down further so you use less cycles, because you won't be there long.

IMO, there is no substitute for knowing the SOC and having all the charging systems use it for control.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Actually, it appears they have reduced the BMS parasitic loss significantly down to 20 watts or likely less from the 60 watts shown in the Power Budget document you can find on the website. This lower draw appears to be at least on Version E Ecotreks (possibly even earlier but Jim stated it is on Version E when asked on Facebook) and later. If I get confirmed info from Roadtrek on the numbers I will be updating the info in the Ecotrek Management document I am putting together for the Roadtrek & Hymers Owners Group. Feel free to join the group...

Here is the info from Jim if you can get to Facebook posts on Roadtreking...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/road...h=a2F0eg%3D%3D

Interesting information on the parasitic, especially the 20/15/10/2-5. It sounds like the lowest is probably with the inverter on but in standby or sleeper mode, but online. 2-5 watts is about what most our vans will use with the inverter off or sleeping. 15 or 20 watts is about what they run with the inverter on with no load. The 10 watts is probably because of an inverter change as some of the new stuff will run under an amp of current. It would be of interest to see if the modules all use that much power or if some of it is going to the inverter and would be spread out over all active modules. If each module uses 15 watts, that can add up, as it is about 18% of usable capacity per day. Still a lot better than the 75% the originals used, though

I do find it kind of odd how many people expect solar to do so much more than it does in the real world that is full of trees and clouds. 75-105 amp hours per day of solar recovery from 300 watts, average, is might optimistic from what we have seen. The 105 would be tough to get to even with excellent sun conditions, and even 75 is on the high end, for most 300 watt, flat, systems. The "norm" we hear the most is that you can get is about 30ah per 100 watts of solar, in excellent sun conditions. In the real, non desert, world and the places we go, I would guess our average over all days would be about 1/2 or less of the 75-105. We normally use up to about 50ah per day, depending on the weather (compressor frig), and we will normally lose SOC over camping time unless it is sunny and unobstructed about 2/3 of the time. Of course, any recovery you get makes the SOC drop less, so any is good!

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by booster

I don't think that I would agree with that statement, although in some cases it could be correct.

A voltage trigger is just not going to be all that accurate, as lithium batteries have such a flat curve on discharge and recharge, so you would need to have more safety factor on each end.

If you are just cycling in the the center +/- of the SOC of the batteries with the van sitting somewhere it is OK to run, you would be essentially the same both ways.

In other ways, I think it would be be better to have the SOC trigger, especially if it was settable. There could be times you want to keep the batteries near full in anticipation of being somewhere the engine can't be run, so you would set it to start at maybe 60%, but other times you might want to let it run down further so you use less cycles, because you won't be there long.

IMO, there is no substitute for knowing the SOC and having all the charging systems use it for control.

I agree completely with the fact that a system based on SOC and programmable to set the trigger point and time periods for quiet hours is the best option, I believe the ARV autostart system works that way but is still restricted by the limit on starts and runtime for the engine at each trigger event. This method of triggering provides lots of flexibility for different purposes such as the ones you mentioned and is clearly a better approach in many ways.

On the other hand, Roadtrek has marketed Voltstart as a feature to allow you to leave the van unattended with the AC on for pet safety or to go through the night with the AC running off of batteries, no more, no less. For those two scenarios, I think the voltage trigger works just fine since it will provide the same maximum overall AC runtime as a system using SOC for the trigger. The inaccurate claims that the batteries will get to full charge using Voltstart by a few people are unfortunate but it seems to me that the system performs the task it was designed for in a perfectly reasonable manner.

[riplips]

I would be all over a front dinette solution like that.

The front bed in the Travato G is really not bad at all and only a slight pain in the a$$...

Elegant? No, but super functional.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by booster

Interesting information on the parasitic, especially the 20/15/10/2-5. It sounds like the lowest is probably with the inverter on but in standby or sleeper mode, but online. 2-5 watts is about what most our vans will use with the inverter off or sleeping. 15 or 20 watts is about what they run with the inverter on with no load. The 10 watts is probably because of an inverter change as some of the new stuff will run under an amp of current. It would be of interest to see if the modules all use that much power or if some of it is going to the inverter and would be spread out over all active modules. If each module uses 15 watts, that can add up, as it is about 18% of usable capacity per day. Still a lot better than the 75% the originals used, though

I don't know yet what to make if these new numbers but I don't think these have anything to do with the inverter. The 60 watt number and these new numbers were being discussed in relation to the Power Budget document that is available on the Roadtrek website in the owner's manual section. In that document the parasitic loads of the inverter and the BMS were specified individually with the 60 watt number specific to the BMS and a higher number for the inverter.

I hope to be getting clarification on the details including info on what the new numbers mean and which Ecotrek module versions have which parasitic loads. The current modules seem to be Version H and the new numbers were in response to an owner with Version E Ecotreks. My guess at this point is that it may also depend on the software version in the BMS in addition to the hardware version.

I suspect they have installed lower power relays and implemented reduced power modes for the processor and other circuits and maybe implemented other hardware changes to reduce the load.

The 20, 15, and 10 watt numbers still seem too high to me but they are probably tolerable for the typical owner. They would probably allow most owners to simply leave all the modules online all the time instead of worrying about managing them to avoid BMS power losses.

[gregmchugh]

The Roadtrek power budget document shows a 100 watt parasitic load for the inverter. The owner's manual for the generic version of the inverter shows parasitic loads from 30-50 watts depending of the inverter but Roadtrek does install two inverters in some vans which may be the 100 watt number.

On the 8 AGM vans with a 24 volt battery bank they used a single high capacity 24 volt inverter on these vans. On the Ecotrek vans they are using a 12v battery bank on all size battery banks and a second inverter with a switch to use when needed for added electric loads like induction cooktops and instant hot water taps. The big 24v inverter could handle all the loads by itself.