Hymer Aktiv?

[markopolo]

I just watched the video & thought it was fun. Seems like a very busy place. We have to keep in mind that 20 or so base cargo vans and 20 finished Class B motorhomes would arrive and depart everyday!

Imagine dealing with just the waste packaging associated with all of the accessories and components alone. If you've ever ordered a bunch of stuff for several RV related projects at one time you'll know what I mean.

We do have very high expectations of and for Roadtrek. It's a compliment.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I just watched the video & thought it was fun. Seems like a very busy place. We have to keep in mind that 20 or so base cargo vans and 20 finished Class B motorhomes would arrive and depart everyday!

Imagine dealing with just the waste packaging associated with all of the accessories and components alone. If you've ever ordered a bunch of stuff for several RV related projects at one time you'll know what I mean.

We do have very high expectations of and for Roadtrek. It's a compliment.

I think the production rate is more like 20-25 vans per week. Roadtrek yearly production has recently been around 1000 vans I believe.

[markopolo]

Oops, yes per week. I was figuring 1000 vans per year but screwed up days & weeks

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by SiennaGuy

Proofreading marketing material and making corrections on a web site before releasing it takes a few hours. Cleaning up a work area on a shop floor before recording a video takes around the same amount of time. Neither task requires major corporate planning.

I guess I have unrealistic expectations for Hymer and Roadtrek. These things are just too difficult and pie-in-the-sky because a pen and a broom require generations of experience and high-end skills. Perhaps a few years after this acquisition, they'll adopt futuristic advanced technology and will put the correct name of their product on their web site. If all goes well, they might even learn to sweep the floor!

Yes, In my opinion you do have an unrealistic expectation of the effort and time it takes to transform a company the size of Roadtrek into a state of the art, high quality manufacturing organization similar to the other companies within the Erwin Hymer Group. A realistic expectation based on similar transformations in automotive industry companies starting where Roadtrek is today would be at least a year for aggressive transformation and typically longer than that in most cases. Some things can change rapidly, like the added resources Roadtrek is putting on customer support. Transforming the manufacturing facility will likely be an incremental day-to-day effort to make changes while keeping the production volumes intact. Some companies are closer to the goal to start but others are not very close at the start, not sure how accurate this estimate will be for Roadtrek but change will not be immediate as you seem to be expecting.

[booster]

I would add one thing to what Greg says.

Probably changing the "corporate culture" is usually one of the most important things that needs to be done, if not the most important thing. It can be like trying to turn an aircraft carrier with rowboat in some places, and even in the most receptive companies is a challenge. I have been involved in at least a half dozen of this kind of thing, both from being in the company being upgraded, and as the outside people coming in to an existing company.

How successful the culture change process is usually can be traced back to how the existing management team handles it. The fact that there will be resistance to the changes from nearly all levels of the company is a given, so it just has to be dealt with constructively, consistently, and fairly, with lots of input from all levels of the organization.

The least successful culture changes almost always happen when the existing management doesn't buy in fully to the new systems and does the "wink, wink, I agree with you" when dealing with the various areas of resistance. In that case, nobody has any incentive to buy in and embrace the changes, or even give them a fair chance. They will inevitably sit back and ride it out, hoping the changes will roll back. If it is an improvement program done by contract facilitators, that often, even mostly, will work for the resistors. If it is a buyout situation like Roadtrek is, that whole scenario can get extremely ugly and inevitably lots of heads roll, or the company gets sold again, and again, until it is dead. How Hammil and his group are handling things internally, all the way down through the supervisors and production crew will probably be the biggest factor on when, and if, Roadtrek gets to premier manufacturing status.

I do agree that some folks may be overly optimistic, not do to if Roadtrek will get straightened out, but how fast it can be done. IMO 6-12 months to show decent progress, but still have a long ways to go, would probably be as good as it can get. Getting through the first steps that show good progress, with all at the company benefiting, is needed first to get the momentum started and buyin stabilized. At that point more aggressive goals can be made and speed will pick up rapidly.

[Davydd]

Seems to me there is a lot of speculations and assumptions. The big assumptions have been for the most part Hymer Group good and Roadtrek team bad.

Heck, I could assume Hymer Group inflexible and rigid based on their performance to date in North America and Roadtrek team creative and innovative. In the year the abortive Grand Canyon was introduced and morphed into the Aktiv, not a lot had changed in it to adapt to a North American market. In that same year Roadtrek had advanced the Etrek concepts quite a bit and continue to push the strength of Class Bs as independent off-grid touring vehicles, the one niche most all other RVs would have more difficulty.

The Roadtrek executive team remains in place and the former Roadtrek ownership group is gone as I understand it. Maybe Roadtrek's believed faults stemmed from the former ownership's perceived non-involvement and thumb on the financials. Hey, but it is all just speculation. We don't know the details behind any of this.

New ownership is a roll of the dice. A 40 year old company Great West Vans didn't last very long with new ownership.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Heck, I could assume Hymer Group inflexible and rigid based on their performance to date in North America and Roadtrek team creative and innovative. In the year the abortive Grand Canyon was introduced and morphed

When Airstream brought the Mercedes Sprinter Westfalia to the USA they too spent a lot of time retrofitting it for American use. They had some challenges but overall it was a good product. It was the last RV I owned.

You may be an insider but I have not heard much about any challenges Roadtrek and Hymer are encountering to make the ACTIV USA-ready. Other than small electrical details and naming, what else is must be done state-side?

[gregmchugh]

Isn't most of what we do here assumption and speculation with a smattering of technical problem solving thrown in...

I don't think I have ever been one to pass judgement on Roadtrek personnel at any level of the organization. I have questioned some of the new technology development processes that allowed so many problems to get out to unsuspecting customers. I have worked in companies under the control of short term investors and typically their goals do not include anything other than maximizing their return for the short period they expect to own the company. I think Roadtrek management did very good job of technical innovation under those circumstances and it may not have been very easy to accomplish that. The inconsistent product quality over the last few years is also not surprising given the likeky focus on short term goals.

I think the acquisition is a win-win for Hymer and Roadtrek. I expect a very good long term outcome. I cannot imagine a better match for Roadtrek in terms of the acquisition. Hymer will surely get their European based products to market faster with this acquisition than many other possible options and they get access to new technology. Roadtrek can focus on longer term goals including quality improvement and Hymer has expertise to help with that based on their reputation for high quality and products that reflect that reputation. Many other advantages to both in this deal...

[ClassB4Me]

I'll defer to others who know more but maybe the Grand Canyon / ACTIV rollout was a too optimistic goal in-lieu of the acquisition and cultural integration challenges.

I'll share the response I get from Hymer-Germany if they decide to respond.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Seems to me there is a lot of speculations and assumptions. The big assumptions have been for the most part Hymer Group good and Roadtrek team bad.

Heck, I could assume Hymer Group inflexible and rigid based on their performance to date in North America and Roadtrek team creative and innovative. In the year the abortive Grand Canyon was introduced and morphed into the Aktiv, not a lot had changed in it to adapt to a North American market. In that same year Roadtrek had advanced the Etrek concepts quite a bit and continue to push the strength of Class Bs as independent off-grid touring vehicles, the one niche most all other RVs would have more difficulty.

The Roadtrek executive team remains in place and the former Roadtrek ownership group is gone as I understand it. Maybe Roadtrek's believed faults stemmed from the former ownership's perceived non-involvement and thumb on the financials. Hey, but it is all just speculation. We don't know the details behind any of this.

New ownership is a roll of the dice. A 40 year old company Great West Vans didn't last very long with new ownership.

LOL. What you may call creative and innovative, I might call cavalier experimenting on their well-paying customers.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Isn't most of what we do here assumption and speculation with a smattering of technical problem solving thrown in...

I don't think I have ever been one to pass judgement on Roadtrek personnel at any level of the organization. I have questioned some of the new technology development processes that allowed so many problems to get out to unsuspecting customers. I have worked in companies under the control of short term investors and typically their goals do not include anything other than maximizing their return for the short period they expect to own the company. I think Roadtrek management did very good job of technical innovation under those circumstances and it may not have been very easy to accomplish that. The inconsistent product quality over the last few years is also not surprising given the likeky focus on short term goals.

I think the acquisition is a win-win for Hymer and Roadtrek. I expect a very good long term outcome. I cannot imagine a better match for Roadtrek in terms of the acquisition. Hymer will surely get their European based products to market faster with this acquisition than many other possible options and they get access to new technology. Roadtrek can focus on longer term goals including quality improvement and Hymer has expertise to help with that based on their reputation for high quality and products that reflect that reputation. Many other advantages to both in this deal...

I would agree but with the caveat that it is also very common for investment companies to do anything they can to increase short term company valuation. That would certainly include "state of the art" products even if they were not ready for prime time yet, I assume. Sounds very much like that may have actually happened in this case. Once out of the company, the investment guys don't care about reputation damage or warranty issues because they got their return on investment.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

When Airstream brought the Mercedes Sprinter Westfalia to the USA they too spent a lot of time retrofitting it for American use. They had some challenges but overall it was a good product. It was the last RV I owned.

You may be an insider but I have not heard much about any challenges Roadtrek and Hymer are encountering to make the ACTIV USA-ready. Other than small electrical details and naming, what else is must be done state-side?

The Airstream Westfalia was indeed a good product. That was over a decade ago and I think more innovative than Hymer today and the quality was better than the Aktiv I inspected in Phoenix. But keep in mind, that effort fizzled after two years and sales of about 200 despite some rather super promotion and advertising. I almost bought one.

I'm no insider and probably not beloved by Roadtrek. I just would not pay $100,000 for an RV that relied on a cassette toilet to empty and a toilet and sink you have to rotate to use and still expanded into your aisle. Cute doesn't make them functional.

They introduced the Phoenix Aktiv with no window in the bed area. The New York intro version had a window, but still, they had a whole year to research and work this out.

Cross sleeping that you have to climb up to get into will never sell to a senior couple.

They botched the water fill system. That's easily fixable but again shows they did not do their homework. Did I not say inflexible and rigid?

They hastily added a tiny 600w microwave that can at best heat water for a cup of tea. It also looked like a piece of cheap crap.

The interior did not look all that great. Quality and aesthetics were not there.

There is no proven demographic of active users, families or couples who will buy it in numbers at $100,000.

The only thing that will separate them from other Promasters will be the Roadtrek team contributions in the EcoTrek arena, not what Hymer brings. The Zion is a better product at this stage. The Travato will eat their lunch anyway.

[SiennaGuy]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Yes, In my opinion you do have an unrealistic expectation of the effort and time it takes to transform a company the size of Roadtrek into a state of the art, high quality manufacturing organization similar to the other companies within the Erwin Hymer Group. A realistic expectation based on similar transformations in automotive industry companies starting where Roadtrek is today would be at least a year for aggressive transformation and typically longer than that in most cases. Some things can change rapidly, like the added resources Roadtrek is putting on customer support. Transforming the manufacturing facility will likely be an incremental day-to-day effort to make changes while keeping the production volumes intact. Some companies are closer to the goal to start but others are not very close at the start, not sure how accurate this estimate will be for Roadtrek but change will not be immediate as you seem to be expecting.

A pen and a broom aren't "state of the art" and they do not require "at least a year" or "incremental day-to-day effort" for most adults to figure out how to use. I know that if I told my boss that I had to wait for corporate transformation and cultural integration before I could sweep the floor, I'd probably be fired.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The only thing that will separate them from other Promasters will be the Roadtrek team contributions in the EcoTrek arena, not what Hymer brings. The Zion is a better product at this stage. The Travato will eat their lunch anyway.

I have to say if true, this does not bode well for Hymer in the short-term future. There was a lot of work done (so we believed) with Spartan when they were going to be the US supplier.

[Keyne]

Safari condo has some nice layouts (flex). They could expand US distribution and sell really well to the active demographic. It seems their biggest downside is getting one built in Canada.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by booster

I would agree but with the caveat that it is also very common for investment companies to do anything they can to increase short term company valuation. That would certainly include "state of the art" products even if they were not ready for prime time yet, I assume. Sounds very much like that may have actually happened in this case. Once out of the company, the investment guys don't care about reputation damage or warranty issues because they got their return on investment.

Agree that the investment company likely supported the new technology development as a way to increase the value for the sale. Very good strategy. The roll out could have been smoother and created less customer chaos and bad PR. Why not simply enlist a group of willing and enthusiastic beta test customers for the initial roll out who understood that they would be taking the risk of having to work through initial problems. No one has a problem when this is done with other new technology roll outs, it just seems like they could have avoided a lot of the bad things that happened during the roll out to unsuspecting customers. Just takes the admission that it is truly a beta version with bugs that need to be found by real world users. End result would have been the same in terms of the timing for getting to production level reliability and they would have avoided losing at least one significant customer who got surprised by the major problems in his van that Roadtrek could not resolve. Satisfying that one customer may have had the potential to increase their yearly sales by about 100 vans which is about a 10% increase in sales which is nothing to sneeze at when you are trailing Winnebago by less than 10%. In any case, this is all water over the dam at this point and it is easy to second guess what happened, I don't recall anyone ever coming in to work with the goal of doing something that is anything other than what seems to be the best choice at that time no matter what it may look like in retrospect...

[booster]

I wouldn't be surprised that the products actually got released earlier than planned originally. Behind the scenes anticipation of Hymer negotiations might have been a driving factor, although in this case probably hurt more than helped. I also think that the folks who were working on the new products were trying to do a good job with it, but as is often the case, the goals of management, marketing, and accounting can severely conflict with the actual development process. It is highly likely the folks that were actually working on the products knew they hadn't been adequately tested.

The no real life testing is just not a good idea, I agree. Beta testing can be expensive and time consuming, but in this case it sure would have been a good idea, with how quickly all the problems surfaced. You usually don't see complete failures like that right out of the gate.

[gregmchugh]

Roadtrek does have the advantage of a very large cadre of loyal customers who seem to take this stuff in stride accepting the idea that failures in new technology are just what one should expect and that there is no way to predict what will happen until the customer starts to use it. They view this stuff as Roadtrek doing cutting edge work on advanced technology and don't seem very bothered by it...

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by booster

I wouldn't be surprised that the products actually got released earlier than planned originally. Behind the scenes anticipation of Hymer negotiations might have been a driving factor, although in this case probably hurt more than helped. I also think that the folks who were working on the new products were trying to do a good job with it, but as is often the case, the goals of management, marketing, and accounting can severely conflict with the actual development process. It is highly likely the folks that were actually working on the products knew they hadn't been adequately tested.

The no real life testing is just not a good idea, I agree. Beta testing can be expensive and time consuming, but in this case it sure would have been a good idea, with how quickly all the problems surfaced. You usually don't see complete failures like that right out of the gate.

I believe RoadTrek 'beta-tested; with 3 or more actual customers by giving them use of an RV equipped with the technology. Maybe others will have more information about the type of other testing methods Roadtrek uses.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Roadtrek does have the advantage of a very large cadre of loyal customers who seem to take this stuff in stride accepting the idea that failures in new technology are just what one should expect and that there is no way to predict what will happen until the customer starts to use it. They view this stuff as Roadtrek doing cutting edge work on advanced technology and don't seem very bothered by it...

Early on I saw many low miles Roadtreks with the advanced battery and solar packages showing up for sale on RV Trader or showing up as trades with other manufacturers (Airstream). In addition, I thought I saw one owner establish his own blog documenting all the problems he encountered with his new RV. He did not sound very happy. If I were trying to get out from under not so reliable RV, I would not note that in my 4-sale sign.

April 18th Even though we are trying to sell our E-trek, we still plan to take some trips to our usual spots over the next two months It retailed for $152K but is willing to let it go for a new price of $120K reduced from the original asking price of $132K.

People tend to cut their losses and move on when things go bad with cars and RVs