Hymer Aktiv?

[DCHitt]

I now have 15,000 miles on my Promaster Sportsmobile. I'm 6'3" and it did take a while to get used to the strange seating position. Now I am quite comfortable but I do wish it had a tilt steering wheel.

[Keyne]

That's good news. I will have to go test drive a PM and see how it goes.

In regards to the Hymer Aktiv... If they can keep the price close to other PM offerings I think it could sell well if they keep the German quality.

Also I am new to RV's but why are people against a cassette toilet? I could see maybe the capacity is less than a black tank, but being able to dump in a regular toilet (eg rest area or gas station bathroom, or pit toilet in a park) seems like a good idea. Is that not feasible in the real world? Earthroamers in the US have used them for years.

[Davydd]

I've never seen anyone dump in a campground toilet. Many campgrounds specifically forbid it. However, I have seen many trailer and truck campers wheel a cassette down to a dump station everyone else dumps in and where you eventually have to also dump your grey water tank unless you want to gravity drain it into buckets and containers and carry that too to a toilet or dump station. I watched a German RVer go through that at an Alaskan campground. It took him nearly an hour.

You have to ask yourself are you comfortable with lifting 45-50 lbs and dumping into a flush toilet without overflowing it or making a mess? Then how do you flush and clean your tank and hose? If one thinks that is all simple and easy then go for it. You would be doing that 4-5 times as frequently as I dump my black tank with a macerator and flush it with mostly soapy grey water as the second step all in 5-10 minutes.

[Keyne]

Davydd, thank you for the real world point of view. I was wondering how heavy the cassette would be and how one could dump that much into a small toilet. It sounded too good to be true. I guess in Europe dump stations are not used as much as in the US?

Another alternative could be a compost toilet. The Fitrv couple installed one so it will be interesting to see their experience with it.

[avanti]

Honestly, a real tank and a macerator are kind of hard to beat.

[Davydd]

I am not sure why you cast about for something other than the tried and true most all know works.

I've watched all the videos about compost toilets. I surmise if one gets one they will never admit their mistake.

The Wynn's video, if you watched it, shows them happily playing and preparing a base of crushed shells or something as if they were potting plants. Then they show carrying a 40 lb. toilet out through the RV to dump it outside in a bag. Then they have to dispose of the bag. Meanwhile they constantly handle a bucket of pee that has to be disposed of. Similar to demonstrators of cassettes they never show a real life situation of actual human waste.

So ask yourself...

Do you want to carry large bags of crushed shells or search for a re-supply?

Do you want to carry a pee bucket through your B?

Do you want to detach a messy toilet that weighs empty about 40 lbs and carry it out through your clean B then lifting it, turning it upside down and deposit it a floppy bag?

Do you want to depend on electricity and a constantly running fan for ventilation for something that is not suppose to stink in the first place?

A toilet eventually fills up and then you have to empty it. Do you believe when that time comes you are only dealing with inert clean compost?

Dealing with a cat, kitty litter and and a box is probably a way easier task and it is no fun.

So what is the positive argument?

1. More time between disposal. But then again you still have to deal with grey water and make those trips. Dealing with a black tank is just one extra pull of a handle when you do so with a conventional system.

Seriously, I think most B users try not to do number 2 in their Bs as much as possible. We are one to do that, so yes, I could probably go out on our usual month to two month trips without worrying about it until I got home. But if you actually do use it daily no one has ever given an accurate time between disposals that I have seen.

2. If you winter dry camp you don't have to deal with water and freezing and still able to use your toilet. Do you plan to really winter camp that much where that might be an advantage?

That's the way I see it.

[gregmchugh]

Composting toilets always seem to engender a lively discussion and lots of strong opinions on both sides. I have looked for actual real world results in the RV world but there are few. You can get info from the boating community and the off grid users on real world usage. I have been looking at a composting toilet option for our next vehicle which might be something like an Earth Cruiser that has the capability to stay out for extended periods away from any options for dumping and comes standard with a cassette toilet. The cassette toilet is the limiting factor for how long you can be out in the boonies since the Earth Cruiser carries 70 gal of diesel and water, uses diesel heat, hot water, and stovetop, and has a water purification system to get water from natural sources or for recycling grey water. For this application a composting toilet would be the ideal solution. Still a ways away from going this route so I continue to research it. I think it shows promise as an option for anyone who wants to really commit to it and is not bothered by some of the mechanics of using it. Maybe not a good option for those who don't like to get their hands dirty on occasion.

I will clarify one thing, there is no need to carry large bags of composting material. The most efficient option seems to be using bricks of compressed dried coconut fiber, each of which can handle several refills. One of the Wynns videos shows the process of rehydrating the coconut fiber which expands it back to the state used as the composting material. This is what a brick looks like...

http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Footpr...r_1_21&sr=8-21

[Keyne]

Thanks for the info. I have looked at Earthcruisers was well. They are very nice but more capability than we would need now.

David, the reason I ask about these different alternatives is I am interested if they actually work in the real world and the cassette could be offered on the Aktiv. Also I come from a tent camping (toilet = hole in ground) and sailboats (bucket and wag bags) so I am not used to all this luxury when camping. Also if dry camping it seems like it would be nice not to have to find a dumping station but it looks like either way that is a reality. Not a problem really but good to know what the real options are. I am now thinking tried and true approaches to power and waste are probably the best for our first RV.

[gregmchugh]

Keyne, the Aktiv specs so far have shown only the cassette toilet with no option shown yet for a black tank.

The other vehicle we are looking at besides EarthCruiser is an XP Camper V1 pop-up truck camper on a flatbed one ton 4x4 pickup chassis. Very similar capabilities to an EarthCruuser but significantly less expensive, $90,000 plus the pickup vs maybe $220,000 or so for an EarthCruiser FX (the hard side model). Most popular pop-up truck camper for the off the beaten path group is a Four Wheel Camper which is also a good choice at a lower price point but a more traditional design vs the two we are looking at.

[Davydd]

Keyne, Greg describes it fairly well. Alternate systems would be desirable if traveling unconventionally in a B, or possibly thinking of taking a trip down to Patagonia. I pointed out how I saw cassettes being used and what I've seen so far in regard to compost toilets. My simple conclusion is they are both more trouble than they are worth if most traveling is in the USA and Canada where dump facilities are abundant and disposal systems in Bs are fairly well designed and convenient. Time needed with dealing with them and weight of those systems are my biggest objections. I am at an age handling a bag of landscape rocks from Home Depot is getting to be a big pain.

With our tank capacities in our Advanced RV Sprinter we have been averaging a dump station visit about every 10 days and we could extend that if we didn't dump sometimes prematurely with half filled tanks when finding convenient times and campgrounds to do so when knowing we were heading more off-grid somewhere. It kind of takes a tent campers mentality and we had 40 years experience and habits like that before getting an RV.

We have 40 gallons of freshwater, 18 gallon black tank and a 26 gallon grey tank. Since 5 days is the longest we have ever spent at one camping spot in over a decade with no facilities, water or dump station, I am pretty comfortable with our systems. Last year we plugged into shore power a total of 19 times out of 152 nights as we did camp in a lot of unconventional places. Our Advanced RV is a luxury in that regard compared to our two previous Bs.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Mike Wendland video of Hymer Aktiv...

Hands on with the Hymer after a visit to the factory - Roadtreking : The RV Lifestyle Blog

Did anyone notice the surroundings inside the factory when they were showing the cassette tank removal? It saddens me that the culture in Roadtrek thinks this is a good reflection of the company, the workers, and the product.

That wall next to the vehicle had interior cabinet parts lying about, and appeared to be a dump zone for anything and everything. When I see a vehicle sitting there with no sink my 1st thought is defective part? Was it easily damaged upon delivery from Germany? Could that be the missing sink at 4:56 in the video over there laying on top of something?

To make sure I was not being overly critical, I went to the Advanced RV site and looked at their factory videos. Mike N. would have never allowed his company to produce a video like this.

It does not cost a lot of money or time to place garbage in bins and clean up an area before creating videos that will be published for the global internet to see. Any journalistic value the video was meant to convey may be overshadowed by concern. Does anyone know how much of the vehicle is completed in Germany before Roadtrek professionals get their hands on them?

I guess Mike Wendland has been given permission to be a quasi marketing agent for Hymer products in NA.

Can anyone who owns a Roadtrek and has been in the factory speak to what the video depicts?

[Keyne]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Keyne, Greg describes it fairly well. Alternate systems would be desirable if traveling unconventionally in a B, or possibly thinking of taking a trip down to Patagonia. I pointed out how I saw cassettes being used and what I've seen so far in regard to compost toilets. My simple conclusion is they are both more trouble than they are worth if most traveling is in the USA and Canada where dump facilities are abundant and disposal systems in Bs are fairly well designed and convenient. Time needed with dealing with them and weight of those systems are my biggest objections. I am at an age handling a bag of landscape rocks from Home Depot is getting to be a big pain.

With our tank capacities in our Advanced RV Sprinter we have been averaging a dump station visit about every 10 days and we could extend that if we didn't dump sometimes prematurely with half filled tanks when finding convenient times and campgrounds to do so when knowing we were heading more off-grid somewhere. It kind of takes a tent campers mentality and we had 40 years experience and habits like that before getting an RV.

We have 40 gallons of freshwater, 18 gallon black tank and a 26 gallon grey tank. Since 5 days is the longest we have ever spent at one camping spot in over a decade with no facilities, water or dump station, I am pretty comfortable with our systems. Last year we plugged into shore power a total of 19 times out of 152 nights as we did camp in a lot of unconventional places. Our Advanced RV is a luxury in that regard compared to our two previous Bs.

Davydd and Greg, thanks again for all the info. We plan to use a B for mostly weekend base camp for hiking and maybe 1 longer trip each season. It's fun to think of more off the grid adventures but where we are with careers, etc. it wont happen for a while, and that's ok. For now I don't think we need anything beyond the standard options offered by Pleaseway, Roadtrek, etc. We are planning to rent a Roadtrek for a week out West this Fall and maybe another RV closer to home over some weekends this summer to see how we (e.g. my wife) will like it.

[gregmchugh]

I have toured the factory and I think it is pretty typical of what you would find in companies who have not made the switch to modern lean manufacturing systems. It would be interesting to see the inside of a Hymer factory in Europe to make a comparison, based on their quality reputation I would expect to see a modern lean production facility without the clutter. I would think the new manufacturing plant in Kitchener will be an opportunity for duplicating the high quality manufacturing processes used by Hymer and then based on that updating the existing plant to the same processes.

The two Aktiv builds that were done at Kitchener and displayed to the public at Phoenix and New York did not seem to have any quality issues that I have seen noted. Not sure why they let Mike make a public video of the unit he showed which was obviously not a unit ready to be publicly displayed...

[Davydd]

There was an Aktiv in Phoenix and one in New York on public display. Why wouldn't Wendland make a video? There were some glitches to be worked out. For one, Hymer evidently didn't understand how filling water works here. They had side by side screw on city water inlets on the rear quarter panel, one for city water and one for filling your tank. The Hymer rep at the show said Jim Hammill already told them that was not how it worked here and to put a switchover inside with one fill port. Hymer still has a bit to learn.

[gregmchugh]

I won't argue with the fact that standard black tanks are the most convenient choice for most owners but it really isn't that hard to use a cassette with the main issue being the limited tank capacity will require more frequent dumping. Take a look at 6:30 min in this video to see an an example of the procedure. Again, probably not for a choice for everyone but not as onerous as it is made out to be...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b6P6U9tQIFs

[ClassB4Me]

I agree. Unless you are of limited strength or elderly with health issues it looks pretty straightforward. I've seen people moving luggage through the airport terminals that looked much heavier than that tank. For a Class B, it should be a default option.

[Vince H]

I have a 2004 Roadtrek Versatile, Chevy, which models were not equipped with a macerator. Though I like the Roadtrek in many ways, one of the things I don't like is emptying the gravity blackwater/graywater system. It is low to the ground, and means you have to kneel in everyone else's spilled effluence while you unlock the system and pull out the tube and drain it. I am sure that having a macerator makes this much easier--when it is working. I have read enough complaints about them breaking that I'm not sure about it, and my personal preferences have been moving more toward fewer systems=less complexity=less to break down/easier to fix/cheaper to replace. Short answer: Despite the concerns raised by a few here, I would prefer the cassette toilet to our toilet w/blackwater system. There is no problem dumping the cassette in an outhouse, and you don't have to wait until it is full (1 gallon = 9 lbs, so a full 5 gallon is 45). I don't think anyone is going to object to me dumping 3 gallons in an outhouse, and those are much more common than dumping stations. Of course, everyone has different camping needs and styles; we tend to be in primitive sites and are very conservative with our use of water, fuel, and electricity.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

Did anyone notice the surroundings inside the factory when they were showing the cassette tank removal? It saddens me that the culture in Roadtrek thinks this is a good reflection of the company, the workers, and the product.

That wall next to the vehicle had interior cabinet parts lying about, and appeared to be a dump zone for anything and everything. When I see a vehicle sitting there with no sink my 1st thought is defective part? Was it easily damaged upon delivery from Germany? Could that be the missing sink at 4:56 in the video over there laying on top of something?

To make sure I was not being overly critical, I went to the Advanced RV site and looked at their factory videos. Mike N. would have never allowed his company to produce a video like this.

It does not cost a lot of money or time to place garbage in bins and clean up an area before creating videos that will be published for the global internet to see. Any journalistic value the video was meant to convey may be overshadowed by concern. Does anyone know how much of the vehicle is completed in Germany before Roadtrek professionals get their hands on them?

I guess Mike Wendland has been given permission to be a quasi marketing agent for Hymer products in NA.

Can anyone who owns a Roadtrek and has been in the factory speak to what the video depicts?

I did notice that. I can't believe those shop conditions in any way impressed the Germans. I guess the merger was attractive for other reasons.

You won't see conditions like this at WGO and they certainly aren't at the top of the game for manufacturing techniques. Roadtrek hopefully will be moving away from the mom&pop stage of their evolution pretty soon.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by Davydd

There was an Aktiv in Phoenix and one in New York on public display. Why wouldn't Wendland make a video? There were some glitches to be worked out. For one, Hymer evidently didn't understand how filling water works here. They had side by side screw on city water inlets on the rear quarter panel, one for city water and one for filling your tank. The Hymer rep at the show said Jim Hammill already told them that was not how it worked here and to put a switchover inside with one fill port. Hymer still has a bit to learn.

LOL. That's how WGO does it on the Travato. Truth be told, WGO invented that back in the 50's.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Keyne, Greg describes it fairly well. Alternate systems would be desirable if traveling unconventionally in a B, or possibly thinking of taking a trip down to Patagonia. I pointed out how I saw cassettes being used and what I've seen so far in regard to compost toilets. My simple conclusion is they are both more trouble than they are worth if most traveling is in the USA and Canada where dump facilities are abundant and disposal systems in Bs are fairly well designed and convenient. Time needed with dealing with them and weight of those systems are my biggest objections. I am at an age handling a bag of landscape rocks from Home Depot is getting to be a big pain.

I can't say that I disagree. The only real advantage of the cassette system in a short wheelbase B is the swivel head commode. It enables you to have a very small bathroom that has some flexibility in use. I like very much the design of the bath of the Aktiv with the flip down sink, swivel head loo and a shower in a 24" square space. If you are the type that doesn't prioritize the size of the bath, then this setup could be really appealing, in an otherwise very small van. The youngsters, if there are any, won't be put off by this setup, as it's largely what they'd be used to in dealing with RV's with porta-potties.

I totally agree with the composting toilet comments. It's almost like it's a fad for the supposedly environmentally conscious set. Definitely more trouble than it's worth and the downsides are pretty dire if you have system upsets and don't get full "processing". No thanks. I'm sure someone will now chime in with "theirs has been perfect since day one and I love it." Yeah right, I totally believe you.

In the Ranger Tug community, some have put these in their boats. I have a 30 gallon poo tank. I can see only having to go to a pump-out once a month! Like in the RV world, they are at every marina, and are often free to use. Or you can go out 3 miles and pump out into the ocean. I even have an adapter I made to use an RV dump station when I have the boat on it's trailer. With the composters, I guess they just overboard their pee bucket (most likely in local waters, not offshore - yuk!) every couple days. Again, carrying it thru the boat over your carpets - what could happen?

Oh yeah, almost forgot - guess where your used toilet paper goes? In a bucket you keep somewhere in the bathroom, cause it can't go down in with the poo. Classy!