How do I train wife to

[stanw909]

Not just leave the fridge door open ( letting all the cold out then complaining that the fridge isn't cold enough ) without getting divorced? Will also take responses from women who have problem husbands.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by stanw909

Not just leave the fridge door open ( letting all the cold out then complaining that the fridge isn't cold enough ) without getting divorced? Will also take responses from women who have problem husbands.

Did she agree she needed "training"? That word is enough to get you into trouble

Maybe just rig the door so its closes automatically - spring loaded or gas strut -cheaper than a divorce.

[obgraham]

It isn't possible. Women have a gene that forces them to open the reefer wide, reorganize it at least twice a day, and then stare at it some more.

[Davydd]

I thought only men opened refrigerator doors and stared in hoping a beer would magically appear.

[tgregg]

My wife says get a top loading refrigerator like we have. Sailboats also typically have a top loading refrigerator.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by tgregg

My wife says get a top loading refrigerator like we have.

That would make things worse. The whole "all the cold air falls out" thing is a red herring. The thermal mass of air is so low that it makes almost no difference. It is radiant heating of the contents (and the fridge itself) that matters, and with a top-loader, you often have to remove cold stuff which exposes more of it's surface area to radiant heating.

[AK49er]

Stan, Is spanking an option in your house or class B?

[booster]

I agree with top loading (chest) type frig, as they are significantly more efficient, especially when open.

The initial "cold falling out" isn't really the big heat gain as it is a tiny amount of air, it is the convective cooling of air that immediately starts happening immediately because of the vertical opening height. You will feel a cool breeze coming out of the bottom of the frig with door open for a long, long time and getting all that continuous cold air is putting heat back into the interior of the frig. In and out quickly really knocks down the amount of temp gain in the frig for door units.

[tbirdman]

One day after tired of all the "you not doing it right" I did this. As we were pulling out of the driveway, I asked her which way should I turn. She said you know how to get there. I replied that either way I turned, it would be wrong.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

The initial "cold falling out" isn't really the big heat gain as it is a tiny amount of air, it is the convective cooling of air that immediately starts happening immediately because of the vertical opening height. You will feel a cool breeze coming out of the bottom of the frig with door open for a long, long time and getting all that continuous cold air is putting heat back into the interior of the frig.

Nah. It is true that there will be a breeze, and also that it is cold. It is just that there isn't very much HEAT in that breeze, due to air's aforementioned low thermal mass. Temperature and heat are two different concepts. Of COURSE there are convective losses, but they are small compared to conductive and radiant ones.

It may be true that top-loading refrigerators are more efficient (e.g., they may be better insulated). But if they are, then air loss can't possibly have much to do with it.

[booster]

Pretty simple test.

Run your frig with non perishables in it until it stabilizes. Note the temp and the run time %

Open the door and leave it open and take the same readings. My guess is that you won't find any RV frig, even compressor frigs, that will keep the frig close to cold with door open.

Most chest frigs will do way better, and probably will keep most of the frig cold, except for the very top.

If it is running continuously, you can look up how many btus are going into the frig and have an idea of heat loss.

Any given cubic centimeter of air may not have a very big heat capacity do to thermal mass, but air moves very easily and with the help of gravity creates its own draft based on height. If you think about a "normal" frig that doesn't use a fan on the condenser coils, all the heat that is removed from the frig, plus any inefficiencies, is dissipated by gravity moved air over the condenser coils, which is not much different than the situation that happens with door open in a front door frig.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Pretty simple test.

Run your frig with non perishables in it until it stabilizes. Note the temp and the run time %

Open the door and leave it open and take the same readings. My guess is that you won't find any RV frig, even compressor frigs, that will keep the frig close to cold with door open.

NO! Totally wrong test. You are simply measuring the temperature of the newly-introduced AIR, which, as I say, is almost totally irrelevant. The correct test is to see how long it takes for the temperature to recover after the door is closed. This requires an internal, remotely-readable thermometer. It is this measurement that will tell you what the energy cost of an open door really is.

As I said, it is essential not to confuse TEMPERATURE with HEAT.

[avanti]

P.S. -- at least we have successfully diverted this thread away from very dangerous territory.

[booster]

Ok do the test you say, and my guess is you will find the same thing. It all depends on where the temp sensor is in the frig. Your test is also inaccurate because the when one area of the frig is heated it is not usually in the area that will control the shutoff once you close the door, which will get cold very quickly.

Obviously, heat and temp are different. But the amount of heat is directly related to the change in temperature times the thermal heat capacity coefficient.

If you truly want to calculate the actual heat loss in the suggested tests, you need to have the frig off, not on, and even then you will get a ratio, not an actual number, because you don't know the thermal mass. You would cool it down, read the internal temp, shut if off, open the door for a fixed amount of time, close the door and wait for the temp to stabilize. Do the same with the chest frig with the same stuff inside so you have the same thermal mass. Other than that, you need to be in a thermal environmental chamber to determine heat loss.

You can also test the radiant energy heat gain, and that is pretty easy. All you need to do is open the door an inch or two and tape vertical opening that is created. That way the frig is not seeing any real amount of radiant, as the surfaces that are on the outside can't see in. If the air heating is trivial the frig should still stay cold. Do the same with a chest frig for comparison.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

P.S. -- at least we have successfully diverted this thread away from very dangerous territory.

Yep, fraid so

[tbirdman]

Originally Posted by avanti

P.S. -- at least we have successfully diverted this thread away from very dangerous territory.

You all have to make a decision. Do you want to be right or happy?

[BobB]

Wow, this thread took a left turn. Interesting discussion, though. Googled top vs front-loading fridges on some sailing forums. Did not find any thorough testing with instruments, etc. but general consensus was (1) primary reason for top loading is - when you are sailing and boat is heeled and/or rough seas, things don't fall out, when you access the fridge. (2) some theorizing on the cold air sinks, top-load more efficient, etc., but someone pointed out that getting food out of top-loader takes more time, lid is open more, so in the end it's a wash. Biggest improvement on efficiency comes with insulation - on many fridges at least 2 inches and some DIYers build them with Vacuum Insulated Panels (VIPs)

So Stan does not think we all forgot about him and his original problem, I did some googling on fridge doors - keeping them closed.

At home the easiest way is adjust the levelers so that the fridge is just so ever slightly tilted back, so that gravity does the job. But that doesn't help in an RV.

There are fridges with spring loaded hinges that close automatically - seem to be useful for commercial applications like food service.

The best I came up with is a small spring loaded door closer

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003DQGEMQ/...I3VO5C04GL7WK8

This video shows how it works. It is rather simple in fact.

http://prime-line-products.com/home4.wcs?nMenuid=1380

Rather than drill a hole in the face of the fridge door for that piece of plastic that helps the pin slide, you could just use a piece of UHMW tape.

The issue is whether or not there is room on the hinge side of Stan's fridge - like a cabinet stile - to mount it. A lot of RV cabinets today seem to be using flush faces.

Well, that's my $.02.

[mlts22]

There is also the third option... buy a Dometic refrigerator cooler with a Danfoss compressor. Make sure it isn't a "thermoelectric" or "Peltier" cooler, because those are garbage. Then, use that for either the freezer or the fridge, because the lid generally will remain closed on that, and it is a very efficient little unit (3A on 12 volts, moreso if running as a freezer.)

[Davydd]

Who sells a Class B with a top loading refrigerator anyway? The only one I am aware of is the 2005 Airstream Westfalia Sprinter in America. I've followed that particular B for years but don't recall any plus or minus discussion about the refrigerator.

I would think a self-closing door might be a nuisance.

I figure Stan can do two things. Play Don Herbert "Mr. Wizard" and conduct experiments with his wife as his student to show results, or Stan "Clyde Beatty" will have to get out his whip and chair.

[stanw909]

Interesting responses but I guess I was venting a little. I was thinking of getting a squirt gun and doing the " bad kitty " thing but will probably just let the food spoil until she gets the idea. I liked the top loader discussion and since they are all ( I think ) compressor fridges , they recover coldness rather quickly. We have a little Dometic cf-18 chest fridge. It's wonderful but the coldest part is in the top not the bottom and yes you do have to pull everything out to find stuff. It's my second cf-18. The first one went with my poptop van and I bought this one right away. If it's possible, I will only have compressor fridges in the future. If my wife manages to kill the Dometic gas fridge we currently have as our main fridge, I will replace with a compressor fridge.