Help me find a good class B or B+

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Olbie

I do plan to add the aux alternator. I spoke to Grant about this and he explained that they don't offer it because Mercedes is not ok with the idling of the diesel to charge batteries like Road Trek is doing. It is the major cause of diesel def problems.

You won't regret the second alternator. Best upgrade that we have made!

However, I think their excuse for not offering it is a bit over-stated. I believe that long periods of idling is not good for your Sprinter. However, (a) nowhere in the published Mercedes literature have I ever seen a warning to avoid idling a Sprinter. All they say is that it needs to be balanced by highway driving (after all, they explicitly provide mounting brackets for second alternators); and (b) I think it is a gross exaggeration to claim that it it the major cause of DEF problems. I had a DEF issue, but do not idle my Sprinter. That is a sample of one, but I am pretty confident that there are lots more people who have had DEF issues than there are regular idlers.

[Olbie]

Originally Posted by avanti

You won't regret the second alternator. Best upgrade that we have made!

However, I think their excuse for not offering it is a bit over-stated. I believe that long periods of idling is not good for your Sprinter. However, (a) nowhere in the published Mercedes literature have I ever seen a warning to avoid idling a Sprinter. All they say is that it needs to be balanced by highway driving (after all, they explicitly provide mounting brackets for second alternators); and (b) I think it is a gross exaggeration to claim that it it the major cause of DEF problems. I had a DEF issue, but do not idle my Sprinter. That is a sample of one, but I am pretty confident that there are lots more people who have had DEF issues than there are regular idlers.

Agreed Avanti, maybe it is overstated but it is the reason he claimed that they were not installing the alternator. In fact, my discussion with him began as an explanation to him as to why we were not moving forward with buying a new Pleasure Way XLMB, that we wanted several things that the new RV didn't offer, including the auxiliary alternator. His response was (and I quote from his email), "DO NOT INSTALL a second engine alternator as some class B manufacturers offer. This is not approved by Mercedes Benz and they have strongly advised that we cannot do this and retain our privileged status as a Approved Mercedes Benz Up-fitter." After further discussion with him he said it was not good to idle the diesel for long periods. I explained that we had done research and found that driving with the aux alternator seemed ok and a Sprinter shop had agreed to install it for us and with that he seemed ok.

I am not sure what caused the DEF issue that I had with my Ford 6.7, but I was told by the tech to not idle the diesel for long periods as it creates issues. He said that diesels were meant to be run hard not idled.

[Technomadness]

Diesels idle fine. It’s the new emissions control garbage that is the problem.


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[Technomadness]

Originally Posted by Olbie

Ours is a 2015 and as of yet has no rattles. When it was new we had quite a bit of wind noise but after reading about it on one of the forums I added more weather stripping around the coach door and skylights and the noise now is similar to the Coachman Galleria. It also drives very similar to the Coachman although I think because of the dual rear wheels we get less effect from wind gusts and passing semi's.

I like the sealed fibreglass body, would prefer a solid Mercedes metal body but the wide body gives sooooo much more space than the standard B van. So far no issues with leaks or creaks.

The inside quality is great! The only warranty issue we have had had to do with the electronic measurement of the tanks and battery when it was brand new, but Pleasure-Way quickly set me up with the vendor of the system Spyder Controls and Spyder told me it was a control board. They mailed me a new one and asked that I mail the old one back and all has worked great since.

My source for the hydronic is Rixens in Sandy Oregon. Jim Rixen and his son Mike have been amazing with helping me to design my system and explain how to install and simplify what I was planning. I like the Truma Combi plus, but of course they will not allow a retrofit, and the hydronics offered the ability to heat my holding tanks and lines. I am currently installing this and it looks like it will fit internally in less space than the current Atwood furnace and Girard water heater take.

The battery system is from Lithionics. I also can't say enough about them! They put together the entire system as plug and play and then shipped it to me. I still haven't decided if I am going to remove the Onan generator. I am going to use this system for a while before deciding.

I do plan to add the aux alternator. I spoke to Grant at Pleasure Way about this and he explained that they don't offer it because Mercedes is not ok with the idling of the diesel to charge batteries like Road Trek is doing. It is the major cause of diesel def problems. I also have a Ford 6.7 diesel truck and after having some issues they told me to never let it idle as it plugs the system. My Sprinter garage though did say that it was fine to install the alternator but charge while driving, not idling.

As far as the solar goes, ours came with (1) 95 watt panel and there is room for maybe (3) more. I have found though that an hour of driving is worth 200 hours of charging. (Maybe exaggerated but you get the point.)

To me I think I would look for a low miles unit from around 2015 as they have none of the new tech stuff. I feel as though when we get ours finished, (soon) there will be few comparable on the road.

Thanks! Hadn’t heard of Rixens before, and thought lithionics didn’t support refits.

I have been looking at ten year old models. It’s funny how they are ten years old and only half the price. Doesn’t seem like a deal to me. I think PW and all manufacturers improve their quality over time incrementally. So sometimes newer jeans more complicated, sometimes it is better.

I would buy an older depreciated rig if I could fine one for 1/8th of new. Alas the #vanlife movement has driven up demand for these things. For most people in that generation they are probably too young to afford new so they have to drive prices up.


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[Technomadness]

Regarding my last comment, I didn’t mean just Pleasure ways were high priced used, but lower quality makes as well. Eg Winnebagos.

Rixens looks great and they do installs as well, so that solves a key stumbling block. Maybe I’ll do a conversion myself, instead of buying an RV. Building out the interior I can do easily and better fitting my needs— all the RVs floorplans are compromised compared to what I want since they are designed for families going to RV parks more than full time boondockers.


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[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Olbie

Agreed Avanti, maybe it is overstated but it is the reason he claimed that they were not installing the alternator. In fact, my discussion with him began as an explanation to him as to why we were not moving forward with buying a new Pleasure Way XLMB, that we wanted several things that the new RV didn't offer, including the auxiliary alternator. His response was (and I quote from his email), "DO NOT INSTALL a second engine alternator as some class B manufacturers offer. This is not approved by Mercedes Benz and they have strongly advised that we cannot do this and retain our privileged status as a Approved Mercedes Benz Up-fitter." After further discussion with him he said it was not good to idle the diesel for long periods. I explained that we had done research and found that driving with the aux alternator seemed ok and a Sprinter shop had agreed to install it for us and with that he seemed ok..

Perhaps PW can help us to understand if MB is so set on not installing an auxiliary generator, why they manufacture and supply the brackets to do so?

My guess is that MB is indeed concerned about long idling periods and their legal department would like to include some exception language in their warranty, where upon their marketing and sales department cheerfully tells them "the hell with that noise!"

[booster]

I suppose it is also possible that the extra alternator was originally done for the ambulance type vehicles that would need the power, but mainly while driving, so less idling.

The idling thing for charging batteries in RVs is a pretty specific, and I suspect unknown, thing for the van manufacturers especially since the new emissions rules and the large number of RVs that are now looking at doing it.

They probably haven't gotten their story straight yet.

[JakeyLee]

Originally Posted by Technomadness

Here’s my canonical trip to give you an idea. Years ago in a truck camper I drove up thru British Columbia one summer up into Alaska, all the way to Prudhoe Bay, took the tour and stood in the Arctic Ocean. It seems wrong to spend $100k on a vehicle that can’t replicate that trip (and I intend to replicate that trip!)

This means being able to go months between booking up in a campground (campgrounds are the “chilling out from the road spot”— expect to spend maybe 20 days a year with hookups, and maybe another 40 days in dry campgrounds like national parks.)

My current shortlist-
Winnebago Travatos
Pleasure Way Lexor
RoadTrek ProMasters
Hymer Activ 1 & 2

Coachman Galleria- is nice, if sprinter comes back in the table it goes on the shortlist.

Midwest Legend: looks interesting. I hate when the microwave or refrigerator are down low though. I assume that will be awkward to access, I wish those who did it adopted Airstreams design where the fridge or microwave are drawers when located there, so they just pull pour giving top access.


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Your situation is very similar to mine. Albeit, I will be full timing for only several months at a time, with a home base. I'm a couple years away with almost the identical short list of rigs I'm looking at.

Here's one issue with the Travatos that rarely gets mentioned: it only has 21 gallons of fresh water capacity (59g).. The RT in comparison has 37. If I was just a weekend camper, it wouldn't be much of an issue. But that's an over 67 % increase. When boon docking, that increase would seem to magnify. Just something to consider.

[Olbie]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Perhaps PW can help us to understand if MB is so set on not installing an auxiliary generator, why they manufacture and supply the brackets to do so?

My guess is that MB is indeed concerned about long idling periods and their legal department would like to include some exception language in their warranty, where upon their marketing and sales department cheerfully tells them "the hell with that noise!"

I can't speak for Mercedes Benz, and I guess that I'm not quite as cynical as you cruising7368, but I can accept what Pleasure Way management was telling me. Mercedes does not apparently have a problem with the second alternator as it is installed on many rigs. What they have a problem with is installing it as a "generator" set up to be run at idle.

The issue as discussed earlier has to do with the emission systems not being able to "purge".

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Olbie

I can't speak for Mercedes Benz, and I guess that I'm not quite as cynical as you cruising7368, but I can accept what Pleasure Way management was telling me. Mercedes does not apparently have a problem with the second alternator as it is installed on many rigs. What they have a problem with is installing it as a "generator" set up to be run at idle.

The issue as discussed earlier has to do with the emission systems not being able to "purge".

I don't think it's cynical - rather it reflects the different and conflicting missions in a large organization.

MB says a second alternator is OK as long as it doesn't involve idling? I don't get that.because the second alternator provided typically in public service vehicles is to provide necessary power while the vehicle is idling, typically for lengthy periods. Prior to 2007 consumers could idle their Sprinters 24/7 without a peep from MB. Rather than redesign the engine to address, they employed a variety of convoluted bandages to accomplish it. But why should the Sprinter owner later than 2007 have to modify their use of the vehicle to bail MB out of the kludge they installed?

BTW, I think the representations of any upfitter should be met with a cautious eye. For example, PW is still installing 3 way fridges rather than compressor units which in this day and age seems questionable. When queried, they tout the 3 way unit as the most flexible. But IMO, the real reason for this is that their auxiliary battery supply is a little skimpy for compressor operation.

[Bud]

"PW is still installing 3 way fridges rather than compressor units which in this day and age seems questionable. When queried, they tout the 3 way unit as the most flexible."

That will change, probably very soon - before years end.

Bud

[Olbie]

Originally Posted by Bud

"PW is still installing 3 way fridges rather than compressor units which in this day and age seems questionable. When queried, they tout the 3 way unit as the most flexible."

That will change, probably very soon - before years end.

Bud

I agree Bud.

The only reason that folks are touting the 3 way fridges still is because propane serves as a power source rather than battery. Most B's are still pretty bare bones when it comes to battery amp hours so there is a dependence still on the 3 way fridges running on propane.

In my opinion though I think as the industry continues to embrace technology it will be lithium batteries not lead acid that make the transition to compressor fridges really viable.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by Olbie

I agree Bud.

The only reason that folks are touting the 3 way fridges still is because propane serves as a power source rather than battery. Most B's are still pretty bare bones when it comes to battery amp hours so there is a dependence still on the 3 way fridges running on propane.

In my opinion though I think as the industry continues to embrace technology it will be lithium batteries not lead acid that make the transition to compressor fridges really viable.

Kind of agree except that they are viable now without lithium.

Bud

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Olbie

In my opinion though I think as the industry continues to embrace technology it will be lithium batteries not lead acid that make the transition to compressor fridges really viable.

IMO, not necessarily. The current generation of RV compressor fridges are remarkably efficient and particularly on coaches that have some solar, 300ah of AGMs should do just fine and with other appliances used conservatively, even 200ah could suffice with an underhood generator.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Olbie

I agree Bud.

The only reason that folks are touting the 3 way fridges still is because propane serves as a power source rather than battery. Most B's are still pretty bare bones when it comes to battery amp hours so there is a dependence still on the 3 way fridges running on propane.

In my opinion though I think as the industry continues to embrace technology it will be lithium batteries not lead acid that make the transition to compressor fridges really viable.

Compressor frigs certainly take more power than a propane unit, but I think a lot of folks overestimate how much it really is. We have had ours since long before it was fashionable or in mainstream models (Isotherm 3.1CF in a Roadtrek C190P). We use between 17 and 45ah per day with the high end being brutal conditions for a frig at 100* and with the frig side facing the some all day. 300 watts of solar kept us 100% full every day for 6 days without driving, including using the microwave off the inverter. Good sun will give 30ah per 100 watts per day so as long as you get sun every couple of days you are OK. The other part is that even a basic alternator charging system that was in our 07 when we got it will charge at near 80 amps, so 30 minutes covers a day of frig if you drive at all. Big battery banks delay the time to needing a recharge, but you still have to replace the power in the batteries eventually. Our goal was 5-7 days without sun or driving and we can do that on 440ah of AGM with moderate microwave use. We would never give up our compressor frig at this point for the oft stated reasons, which are really true.

Much more of power concern and need for the big battery banks and big charging capacity is from the other fossil fuel replacements like electric instant hot water heaters, inductive cooktops, other cooking appliances. Our microwave pulls right around 100 amps of DC, so 6 minutes is 10ah from the batteries, and 6 minutes isn't very long. 18 minutes of microwave uses about the same as the compressor frig does in a day. Convection ovens can be double that amount, as can hair dryers.

Many of us are optimistically hoping that a low output 100-300 watt, silent, generator system that runs of the vehicle fuel will show up (linear generators are one) soon. They would be capable of delivery 200-600ah of capacity if needed while silently running in the background when needed to replenish the batteries. Having one would get rid of the need a huge battery bank as you would only need high usage buffer capacity and also the engine generator or noisy Onan. It would make for one sweet system IMO.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

MB says a second alternator is OK as long as it doesn't involve idling?

As I have said MB doesn't say anything of the sort--at least as far as I have ever seen, and I have been paying close attention. They DO say things like this:

If the vehicle is predominantly used for short-distance driving, this could lead to a malfunction in the automatic cleaning function for the diesel particle filter. As a result, fuel may accumulate in the engine oil and cause engine failure.
Therefore, if you mainly drive short distan- ces, you should drive on a highway or on rural roads for 20 minutes every 310 miles (500 km). This ensures sufficient regeneration of the diesel particle filter.
Therefore, if you mainly drive short distances, drive on a freeway or an inter-urban road for 20 minutes every 300 miles (500 km). This facilitates the diesel particle filter's burn-off process.

That is from the MY2014 Operator's Manual. Presumably, idling counts as "short distance driving". Other recent model years say similar things, some of which may explicitly reference idling, but with basically the same advice: "if you idle, make sure you drive at high speeds periodically".

The Bodybuilders' Manual does not say not to idle, either, at least not last time I checked.

[Olbie]

All I can say is that Pleasure Way told me that Mercedes does not want them to add a aux alternator based on the reason stated earlier.

Based on my experience with my earlier Sprinter DEF issues and then my Ford DEF issues I have no intention of using my diesel Sprinter as an idle type generator.

Everyone else must use this info however they please. I will only charge while driving.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Olbie

All I can say is that Pleasure Way told me that Mercedes does not want them to add a aux alternator based on the reason stated earlier.

Based on my experience with my earlier Sprinter DEF issues and then my Ford DEF issues I have no intention of using my diesel Sprinter as an idle type generator.

Everyone else must use this info however they please. I will only charge while driving.

IMO, PW is shining you on. Their explanation doesn't pass the proverbial sniff test. Every ARV delivers with an underhood generator. As does every Galleria Li3. As does every Roadtrek unless the customer special orders the Onan alternative.

If your intention is to charge only when driving and the driving is a decent distance, you may as well ditch any generator, underhood or Onan, and let shore power or rhe OEM salternator do your recharging.

[Olbie]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

IMO, PW is shining you on. Their explanation doesn't pass the proverbial sniff test. Every ARV delivers with an underhood generator. As does every Galleria Li3. As does every Roadtrek unless the customer special orders the Onan alternative.

If your intention is to charge only when driving and the driving is a decent distance, you may as well ditch any generator, underhood or Onan, and let shore power or rhe OEM salternator do your recharging.

I appreciate your perspective but choose to avoid future DEF repairs.

Relax it all works.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Olbie

I appreciate your perspective but choose to avoid future DEF repairs. Relax it all works.

Hey, I'm relaxed cuz I drive a Chevy gasser.

Since the DEF is an emission systems component, isn't the warranty for repairs substantially longer than the regular chassis and engine/powertrain warranty?