Help me assess the value of lithium

[Roadtrek Rich]

Here's something different to think about.
Are you going to buy the vehicle outright or finance?
Is there interest involved in the financing?
What is the term of the financing?

2 hypothetical finance examples.

RV1 - AGM Battery Equipped $100K

Loan fixed 20 years @ 5%

RV2 - Lithium Battery Equipped $125K

Loan fixed 20 years @ 5%

10% down payment

You would be financing an additional $22,500 + applicable tax @ 5% for 20 years.

A simple interest calculator will show you that you will actually be paying 45K for the 25K batteries you included in the loan + applicable tax.

Lithium batteries would probably need to be replaced at least once during this period of time so there would be those costs to consider, too.

Options in the automotive world are where dealers make the largest percentage profits. From the owner, sales manager, salesperson, F&I (Finance and Insurance) people, everyone in the facility is incentivized to "sell" the option vs. the standard and provide you with compelling reasons why it is in your best interest to "buy".

It is definitely in their best interest.

This isn't limited to batteries. You will be offered the opportunity to buy all sorts of things. Paint sealant, protection plans, alarm systems, cameras, audio/video/communications systems, upholstery treatments, sewage dumping solutions, remote vs. standard controls and more. The dealer has this one opportunity to load as much onto the sales price as possible and give you as many reasons you need to obtain your agreement. They're highly skilled at this.

Are lithium batteries "better" than lead acid? (AGM is the Absorbed Glass Mat version of a conventional lead acid battery)

Maybe.

Are AGM batteries adequate?

If you think about how many RV's are out there and how many have lithium batteries in them versus those with lead acid, the percentage of lithium is probably less than 1%.

Up until 2 or 3 years ago, RV owners have used lead acid batteries to provide the power they need when not connected to shore power. And with the use of a solar recharging system, most of the power needs can be met. Especially in light of lower consumption devices like led lighting, lithium battery computing, led screen video, 12 volt compressor refrigerators, diesel furnaces. Small, portable, lightweight, low maintenance, very quiet generators can also be included to round out power requirements.

If the new technology appeals to you, and you have no objection to paying 3, 4, or 5 times the real market value of that technology then do it.

If I were making the purchase decision, I would opt for the lower cost agm batteries knowing that it is possible to retrofit or add the lithium option for much less than the $25K the dealer is asking should my power needs demand it.

For me, this would hold true for any optional item that was offered. I would need a very compelling reason to pay many times more than the value of something that could be had outside the dealership environs for much less.

[GeorgeRa]

The lithium persuasion is powerful. A couple of years ago I was invited to attend the Adventure Van Expo in Mt Hood Meadows in Oregon. A lot of folks went through asking questions about my DIY build. One follow commented with a heavy German accent, wow, this looks just like a 21 Century Westfalia, felt good as it was my objective.

Practically all asked about Lithium batteries, some walked away once they learn I have a puny 230 Ah AGMs.

I think manufacturers of B class should change their ways of building camper vans. The starting point should a big chain with Lithium Battery Bank hanging from the ceiling and all of the trivial stuff like an engine, wheels, chassis, cabinets should be piled on it, with staple guns.

[Bud]

"The lithium persuasion is powerful."

George, I've come over time to the seemingly obvious conclusion that Lead is Dead.

This movement, trend ... started with B's and ac/lithium almost 10 years ago. Today lithium rules financially IF starting new, manufacturer or individual for the most part. An exception would be someone driving their B from shore-power to shore-power, maybe a group 24 wet or agm. Even then, the manufacturer can use the word, label, term, Lithium and ..................

If an existing B like mine and umpteen more, it depends.

Agree.

Bud

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Bud

"The lithium persuasion is powerful."

George, I've come over time to the seemingly obvious conclusion that Lead is Dead.

This movement, trend ... started with B's and ac/lithium almost 10 years ago. Today lithium rules financially IF starting new, manufacturer or individual for the most part. An exception would be someone driving their B from shore-power to shore-power, maybe a group 24 wet or agm. Even then, the manufacturer can use the word, label, term, Lithium and ..................

If an existing B like mine and umpteen more, it depends.

Agree.

Bud

Exactly, you just proved my point of lithium persuasion.

[ikanode]

I don't completely trust lithium- fire

Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LiFePO4) which are the kind used in RV's are NOT a fire hazard. They're different than the batteries used in cell phones or model airplanes--those are the ones that catch fire. There are half a dozen lithium chemistries ranging from light weight and a fire hazard to heavier batteries that are safe. Generally the heavier a lithium battery is compared to its amp hours, the safer.

"LiFePO4 batteries" should be referred to as such and not simply as "lithium batteries". That just confuses people!

[Goldspace]

Also, I think when discussing "AGM" batteries, it's important to distinguish true deep cycle batteries from the "deep cycle" Marine/RV variety that double as starting batteries in some applications. I've learned that if the battery has a terminal post typical in automotive applications, that the battery plate design is appropriate for high discharge rates, and less suitable for deep discharge.

[W9TR]

As has been said before, it all depends on your use case.

I think the #1 use case for a big lithium system is boondocking in hot weather when you need to run the AC for several hours a night/day and can’t run a generator for whatever reason.

The #2 reason would be to go all electric and eliminate the genset and propane.. If you don’t camp in cold weather much this is a possibility. The problem is that propane has a very high thermal value that can’t be duplicated with today’s battery technology.

We were on the fence when we bought our van so I did the math. This is for the Thor MasterVolt system, but the Winnebago Volta system is similar.

Strap in, here goes. ��

Thor B van lithium option is 11,000 watt-hours or 840 Amp - Hours (AH).
The $1000 Lithium batteries you see for sale by Battleborn and others are 100AH.
You’d need ~ 9 of them to equal the energy storage of the MasterVolt system.

Add a 3kW inverter and another 200A under hood alternator and charge controller, and take out the generator and 1kW inverter and you still don’t get to $20k, but you get closer.
The alternator and charge controller are $2400.
The 3kW inverter, a decent one, $1200. High current converter/charger $800
The MasterVolt batteries are more expensive, $5800 ea.
So I get $16,000 for the system components without installation. No idea how much Thor pays for the genset, 1kW inverter, and 2 AGM’s. So it’s easy to get to $20k.

The use case for the Lithium package is running the A/C and microwave because you can run everything else for a few days of boondocking on the AGM’s without having to start the generator or engine.

How long will the lithium package run your A/C? The A/C draws 12A @ 120VAC which is 120@ 12V 840AH/120A = 7 hours. Rough math as I didn’t take into account the inverter efficiency and assumed 12V.

At that point your batteries are exhausted and you have to charge from the engine alternator which at a charge rate of 200A will take 840AH/200A= 4.2 Hours best case.

Given all this and the fact that we don’t camp in places where we would need A/C, we figured the juice was not worth the squeeze and went with the AGM’s and genset.

There is no question Lithium is the future and has advantages over gasoline powered generators.

But for our specific use case, it was a non-starter.

[jakegw2]

GeorgeRA - check out http://wattfuelcell.com. This is one of a few examples out there that provide 300-500w continuous power direct from LP in a fairly small package with complete silence.

Scottfelt -

Understanding what you are likely to get in a lithium system requires knowing a bit about the underlying cost structure. You may pay too much for an inadequate system, but you will never pay too little. You can use a guide to give you an idea of the minimum you could expect to spend for a set of capability.

Lithium costs to the manufacturer (a ballpark guideline, markup for retail might make these costs translate to prices as high as 2x what you see below):

~$2k - replace AGM with 200Ah LiFEPO4. No upgraded components, so expect only about 6 years or less lifespan and about 50% better power for common 12v RV applications. No cold weather protection so -4°F is a big problem.

~$5k - same as above but with upgraded components. Expect 10 year lifespan and ability to run 120v systems like microwave, toaster, coffeemaker, hair dryer, and possibly AC for short periods of time. Possible cold weather heating (but unlikely).

~$10k - same as above or possibly other Lithium chemistry plus Generator replacement capability. This means you can use an alternator on the engine to run 120v components including AC indefinitely. Quick charging of battery along with greater capacity (400 Ah). Cold weather heating very likely.

~$15k Same as above or other Lithium chemistry plus overnight AC (6+ hrs continuous run time). Will certainly have cold weather heating built in.

LiFEPO4 is a very safe chemistry, argueably even safer than AGM. Other Lithium chemistry options hold more power for a given weight but present greater fire hazards. These hazards require additional safety devices (like heavy duty metal compartments). These drive up the cost but allow for 11k+ W/hr capacities.

I have used both LiFEPO4 and AGM at 200Ah capacity. Lithium is much nicer. The quick charge capability alone is a game changer, but combined with the a ability to feed high loads like AC at full efficiency it is a big upgraded for my family's camping style (travel or explore most days, coach AC when stopped during the day, 50/50 dry/shore camping at night). The -4°F lower limit is a bummer and caused me to swap back to AGM for the winter, but I plan on installing battery heat pads in the spring and giving up AGM for good. Without lithium solar is a huge benefit. With it solar is a minor convenience since any short engine run or short connection swamps the solar contribution.

[hbn7hj]

Originally Posted by jakegw2

GeorgeRA - check out http://wattfuelcell.com. This is one of a few examples out there that provide 300-500w continuous power direct from LP in a fairly small package with complete silence.

Yep. There are several on this forum that would be willing to pay top price for that thing. It does not seem to be for sale.

I see large propane tanks next to remote radio repeaters that must be using larger versions of these things. The one on Imogene Pass in Colorado is now using solar and the tank is gone. We can’t get info on it, either. How long does the catalyst last? Cost to replace? Right now it appears to be made of unobtanium.

If anyone has any info start a new thread. Don’t ruin this one.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by jakegw2

GeorgeRA - check out http://wattfuelcell.com. This is one of a few examples out there that provide 300-500w continuous power direct from LP in a fairly small package with complete silence.

................

EFOY powered by methanol (sold by EFOY) is closer to practical reality than WATTS powered by LPG. I think that commercially acquired LPG powered WATTS reliability still needs to be demonstrated. Fuel cells are powered by hydrogen; if LP, methanol or methane are used than they have to be cracked down to hydrogen, this cracking is not simple.

[avanti]

As best I can tell, the WATT folks (who are clearly a startup) are focussing their market entry on residential fuel cells, for which they apparently have a good industry partner. They were just about to launch their RV product with Roadtrek/Hymer as their channel partner. We know how that turned out.

I would definitely buy one in a heartbeat. There is an exiting thread on this topic.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by jakegw2

The -4°F lower limit is a bummer and caused me to swap back to AGM for the winter, but I plan on installing battery heat pads in the spring and giving up AGM for good.

So, you are committing to reliable shore power all winter during storage?

[markopolo]

If cold storage of LiFePO4 batteries is a concern then take a look at Trojan Trillium batteries: https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/da...m_12.8-110.pdf

Operating Temperature Range
-4°F to 140°F (-20°C to 60°C) At Temperatures Below 73°F (23°C) Charging Current Reduced

Storage Temperature Range
-40°F to 140°F (-40°C to 60°C)

Maybe all or most LiFePO4 batteries can be stored down to -40°............

https://www.solacity.com/how-to-keep...tteries-happy/

Storing batteries below freezing is fine, even at very low temperatures such as -40 Centigrade (that is the same in Fahrenheit), or even less! The electrolyte in LiFePO4 cells does not contain any water, so even when it freezes (which happens around -40 Centigrade, depending on the particular formulation) it does not expand, and does not damage the cells. Just let the battery warm up a bit before you start discharging it again, which is OK at -20 Centigrade and above.

On a cold soaked coach, power to supply coach loads such as lights and battery heaters could come from a basic power supply line from the van chassis battery / alternator side (only if the engine is running). That secondary basic power line would be open (no power) when the LiFePO4 battery is allowed to supply coach loads and closed when the LiFePO4 battery is not permitted to supply coach loads. Charging the LiFePO4 battery would be controlled via separate high power line or even a separate alternator.

[booster]

Long discussion on low temp storage and charging in this thread from a while ago.


https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...age-10861.html


It is stated that Valence changed to the same chemistries as others and now says -4*F for storage.


With so many of the manufacturers now saying some sort of limits on longer term cold storage, I wonder if the Solar City information might be outdated, as a couple of years ago that was a quite common claim.


IIRC, Volta, with their electric car type chemistry has a phased in time allowable at cold temps, with longer term limiting at the -4*F.

[@Michael]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Maybe all or most LiFePO4 batteries can be stored down to -40°............

https://www.solacity.com/how-to-keep...tteries-happy/

Storing batteries below freezing is fine, even at very low temperatures such as -40 Centigrade (that is the same in Fahrenheit), or even less!

^^^This is contrary to what other mfg's say. I'm not sure I'd trust it.

I have both AGM and Lithium, and am powering a 15W battery heating pad that covers three sides of the lithium battery. The heating pad is powered from the AGM's, which are kept charged with shore power. I'm extremely space-limited, so the battery has a minimal amount (1/4-1/2") of poorly fitting insulation. In my case, the 15W heating pad raises the battery temp about 35F from ambient temperature. We might have -20F this weekend & I'm sure that I'll be able to keep the battery above -4F & not have to bring it inside or try to heat the entire camper.

As to the need for continuous shore power to keep the lithium warm, I recognize that as a constraint. But if it's -20F and my house has no electric, I'll be far more interested in preventing tens of thousands of dollars in damage from frozen pipes than in keeping my camper battery warm.

As of today, based on my own experience, experimentation, metrics, measurements, charts and graphs, I'm comfortable with lithium in winter temps to -40F, provided that I can insulate and heat the batteries and have reliable shore power.

Mike

[avanti]

Originally Posted by markopolo

If cold storage of LiFePO4 batteries is a concern then take a look at Trojan Trillium batteries: https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/da...m_12.8-110.pdf

Maybe all or most LiFePO4 batteries can be stored down to -40°............

https://www.solacity.com/how-to-keep...tteries-happy/

On a cold soaked coach, power to supply coach loads such as lights and battery heaters could come from a basic power supply line from the van chassis battery / alternator side (only if the engine is running). That secondary basic power line would be open (no power) when the LiFePO4 battery is allowed to supply coach loads and closed when the LiFePO4 battery is not permitted to supply coach loads. Charging the LiFePO4 battery would be controlled via separate high power line or even a separate alternator.

Well, except for the very rare LifeMgPo4 chemistry, the claim of "-40" storage temperatures for lithium batteries contradicts everything that has been reported here from virtually all sources. I certainly hope that it is true, but (a) I would like to know what has changed, and (b) I would sure like to hear it from someone who isn't trying to sell me something.

I am not worried at all about operation or charging temperatures. They can be dealt with in many ways. It is unpowered winter storage that is the issue.

[markopolo]

It appears that low temperature electrolyte formulations have been known for decades - see page 4 & page 6:
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a351962.pdf

Then look at the electrolyte composition of Trojan batteries: https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TR...102918_SPA.pdf

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

It appears that low temperature electrolyte formulations have been known for decades - see page 4 & page 6:
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a351962.pdf

Then look at the electrolyte composition of Trojan batteries: https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/TR...102918_SPA.pdf

I wonder why those style of batteries aren't used for much? Even the electric car stuff, at least for Tesla from the literature we have seen has warnings about very cold temps.

[Davydd]

There are a lot of armchair opinions from none lithium ion owners who have no experience. Let's get one thing out of the way, Valence battery offerings has changed it's chemistry to LifePoMo4 from LifePoMgMo4 so the -40F is off the table from what I can tell. I'm getting Valence batteries from ARV. I think that changed when Lithiumwerks bought them.

The fears about lithium ion and freezing are way over the top in concern. The Twin Cities (Minneapolis/St. Paul) has had but two sub-zero overnight temperatures not reaching -4F this winter and now being February may not have another. It is perhaps the coldest major multi-million metro area in the US and perhaps Canada. Most people living in colder environs know how to take care of vehicles or if they don't they are damn fools. Simple. Heated storage or an electrical source which is mandated on homes outside by building codes. Remote storage without shore power is the only concern. Simple again. Don't buy lithium ion if you are in that situation, but I bet there are few here with that limitation.

I have as mentioned 6 years experience with lithium ion. My first three winters I stored outside in Minnesota with a 20a hookup with no problems. The batteries were under the van with 10a total electric resistance heating pads. Most all companies now including my new ARV store lithium batteries inside the cabin. So you still have to be concerned with charging batteries when below freezing but I think you can safely disconnect them if you have to and then getting underway you can bring the cabin temperature above freezing easily and in turn the batteries for charging. In disconnected storage they are better than AGMs in self discharging rate. In other words they will last the winter better. Self heating batteries or heating pads operating off the batteries themselves can be utilized as well.

I've experienced operating Class Bs with wet and AGM lead acid batteries and now lithium ion. I had many more battery concerns and failures with lead acid and more benefits from lithium ion to never go back. I've been underway boondocking in -15F temperatures with lithium ion batteries. Cost is a factor and I agree if you have a Class B for the life of the lithium ion batteries they might be cheaper in theory but I don't intend to find that out. I can afford the lithium ion batteries and the advantages they have mainly in much more amp hour capacity at a manageable space and weight that AGMs can't match. I can operate my Class B identically whether boondocking or on shore power almost indefinitely, without needing to or monitoring conserving power and without need for an Onan generator or propane. I find that priceless.

[markopolo]

Victron's LiFePO4 battery: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...s-Smart-EN.pdf

Storage temperature -45°C to +70°C

It could all be just a mix up about different definitions of storage such as somewhat ready-to-go (at least for discharge) storage at -4F compared to possible impairment if stored at -40F or colder.