GWV/Sterling RV shuttered...

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by avanti

I'm pretty sure that they would have first dibs in a bankruptcy. Could take awhile, though.

Actually, they would be listed as unsecured creditors. In bankruptcy, the money first goes to the secured creditors (those with debt attached to real property), and if anything is left, divvied up amongst the unsecured. Of course, the lawyers all get paid before anything thing is doled out to the claimants.

[booster]

I have to agree that they probably got a huge culture shock over the last couple of years. They sound like they were a mom and pop fiberglass supplier to other manufacturers, then all of a sudden they are doing whole class b's and having to retail through dealers, and then they pick up and change countries, culture, and all that go with that, and they start having to deal with politicians and banks.

Not all that surprising that they are in the mess they are.

I would bet right now, they are wishing they had just addressed the frozen pipes and continued on at a more reasonable rate of change. The grass isn't always greener, and the folks making the promises don't always tell the truth.

[Davydd]

I wouldn't classify Sterling as a mom and pop. The fiberglass bodies were pretty significant and looked like they were being done for major companies in quantities and not for individuals. They were the supplier of the fiberglass skirts for GWVan. It was by far the biggest part of their business when I toured in 2012. Nothing was ever said about that part of the business in the move to Alabama that I can recall.

How did I arrive at 50 in 2011 for the original order? By asking a few key questions and seeing how they were building the GWVan and how long one was in line. They kind of had a straight line production instead of individual bays. A van came in one door, progressed through and went out another door. Count the possible number of vans at one time and factor in the build time a van would be occupying a spot in the line. 50 was a generous estimate. I have no idea what they had set up in Alabama but the Sterling facilities didn't seem as organized or as big unless they were planning to reduce their fiberglass operations. Also, they had just a few dealers all in the United States. The dealer I was most familiar with and the closest to Winnepeg received very few GWVans every year. It was frustrating and why I made a trip to Winnipeg and grab his order off the line before it arrived. So you have to ask where and how many were they?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by mikes47

Coincidentally, 50 per year is the target Mike N. has mentioned for Advanced RV.

Not coincidence at all. ARV started out in almost every detail as an upscale clone of GWV--right down to floorpan, systems, suppliers (including the US MB dealer from which they both sourced their Sprinters), trifold sofa mechanism, screen door providers, and down to as much minutiae that you might care to investigate. I will avoid the term "spinout", since it tends to make a certain prolific member of this list very upset, but despite his vociferous denials, the tightly interlocking histories of these two businesses and their principals are well-documented for anyone who wants to take the time to pursue the public record. Be careful, though, if you cite any of it you will be branded a "Google jockey" and this will (apparently) invalidate your findings, no matter how well-documented.

I have nothing but admiration for ARV, and there is no question that they are pushing the state of the art, which is a very good thing for the industry. But to deny the debt they owe to Great West is inaccurate, ungracious, and simply silly. I am quite sure we are about to get another dose of it, though. I am also quite sure that Mike N. himself would not dispute these simple facts. The other thing you will hear is that credit for these innovations does not belong to Great West at all but rather to Mike N. in his role as an erstwhile customer of GWV. But, then in the next breath you will hear how wonderful it is that ARV listens to and gets ideas from their customers. There is no responding to such arguments.

Sorry for the rant, but I know from long experience that it is impossible to have a rational discussion of this topic without being personally attacked. It gets kind of old after awhile, so I thought I'd just get my defense out in advance this time.

If (as I sincerely hope is not the case), GWV is in the process of fading from the scene, I think it is especially important that revisionist history not be allowed to sully the record of their contribution to the industry.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I wouldn't classify Sterling as a mom and pop. The fiberglass bodies were pretty significant and looked like they were being done for major companies in quantities and not for individuals. They were the supplier of the fiberglass skirts for GWVan. It was by far the biggest part of their business when I toured in 2012. Nothing was ever said about that part of the business in the move to Alabama that I can recall.

That is exactly what I said, and mom and pop can still have significant sales and still be run by a couple of folks. Heck Scamp also looks mom and pop based on what we saw when we were there. But, and it is a big but, running a business that is delivering finished product to consumers, and being responsible for the design, build, warranty, etc, is a whole lot different than being a vendor of a customer designed piece that they want to buy. I have been on both sides of this setup, and can assure you that many suppliers who decide to go it on there own to finished products find it very, very difficult.

[Davydd]

Booster, I guess it is a matter of how we define a mom and pop business. If you asked me I would say Morehead Design in North Carolina was a mom and pop in the B business. He runs a business where he is pretty much hands on in everything and that evokes mom and pop to me. But when you have a large facility, a corporation, several employees, and a longtime recognized brand you are not exactly mom and pop in my mind. By all appearance, initially, it seemed to me Sterling was a big fish swallowing a minnow taking on the GWVan brand from an owner that was unloading with seemingly no continuation plan. That evidently wasn't the case. It seems now like more of a leverage buy out opportunity and of course not losing that business in fiberglass. It is all hindsight but it does appear they bit off more than they could swallow. The pioneer Class B owner of 40 years was the savvy one that created and nurtured the small success of GWVan. That could not be replaced it seems. I agree with you on that point you make about a supplier taking on a finished product.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by avanti

Not coincidence at all. ARV started out in almost every detail as an upscale clone of GWV--right down to floorpan, systems, suppliers (including the US MB dealer from which they both sourced their Sprinters), trifold sofa mechanism, screen door providers, and down to as much minutiae that you might care to investigate. I will avoid the term "spinout", since it tends to make a certain prolific member of this list very upset, but despite his vociferous denials, the tightly interlocking histories of these two businesses and their principals are well-documented for anyone who wants to take the time to pursue the public record. Be careful, though, if you cite any of it you will be branded a "Google jockey" and this will (apparently) invalidate your findings, no matter how well-documented.

I have nothing but admiration for ARV, and there is no question that they are pushing the state of the art, which is a very good thing for the industry. But to deny the debt they owe to Great West is inaccurate, ungracious, and simply silly. I am quite sure we are about to get another dose of it, though. I am also quite sure that Mike N. himself would not dispute these simple facts. The other thing you will hear is that credit for these innovations does not belong to Great West at all but rather to Mike N. in his role as an erstwhile customer of GWV. But, then in the next breath you will hear how wonderful it is that ARV listens to and gets ideas from their customers. There is no responding to such arguments.

Sorry for the rant, but I know from long experience that it is impossible to have a rational discussion of this topic without being personally attacked. It gets kind of old after awhile, so I thought I'd just get my defense out in advance this time.

If (as I sincerely hope is not the case), GWV is in the process of fading from the scene, I think it is especially important that revisionist history not be allowed to sully the record of their contribution to the industry.

Glad you got that off your chest again. Now go back licking your wounds.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by davydd

glad you got that off your chest again. Now go back licking your wounds.

----------

q.e.d.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by avanti

Not coincidence at all. ARV started out in almost every detail as an upscale clone of GWV--right down to floorpan, systems, suppliers (including the US MB dealer from which they both sourced their Sprinters),

I'm a bit confused by this part. I know that in 2004 and beyond, when Marty still had GWV in Winnipeg, they got all their Sprinter platforms for the US models from the Dodge dealer in Minot ND. (as did Pleasureway in Saskatechwan)

That is why my Classic Supreme was delivered to my house... when they picked up a platform in Minot.

Not that it matters in the whole scheme of things.

Did you anyone actually read the article in that link? It would be interesting to read it all before it disappears. A copy/paste would be wonderful...

[booster]

I did read the entire article and it is classic overextended, good intentions, now nobody will own up to anything, that is common in small to moderate business situations when you get banks and politicians involved. I think lack of experience at GW, the banks, and the city all played into it. It is very easy to see the possible positives of a deal, it is much harder to predict the downsides and potential problems.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I'm a bit confused by this part. I know that in 2004 and beyond, when Marty still had GWV in Winnipeg, they got all their Sprinter platforms for the US models from the Dodge dealer in Minot ND. (as did Pleasureway in Saskatechwan)

That was in the days that Sprinters were being distributed by Dodge. Things necessarily changed when MB started selling them directly. I can't speak for the period immediately after the change, but I have direct knowledge of both GWVs and ARVs source in recent years. I am not sure it is public information, so I will not comment further.

[avanti]

One notable fact described in the article is that the City of Winfield's 50% guarantee of the bank loan was set to expire after one year. The fact that this guarantee was about to expire was almost certainly the proximal cause of the bank's action. Seems likely that it triggered a round of due diligence which, evidently, did not go well.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I'm a bit confused by this part. I know that in 2004 and beyond, when Marty still had GWV in Winnipeg, they got all their Sprinter platforms for the US models from the Dodge dealer in Minot ND. (as did Pleasureway in Saskatechwan)

That is why my Classic Supreme was delivered to my house... when they picked up a platform in Minot.

Not that it matters in the whole scheme of things.

Did you anyone actually read the article in that link? It would be interesting to read it all before it disappears. A copy/paste would be wonderful...

Mumkin,

I can tell you for a fact the first Advanced RV Sprinter did not come from Minot, ND. I have a photo of the window sticker of the very first Advanced RV as well as my own. I'm the white haired guy looking at a bare cargo van at Advanced RV on May 10, 2012 on the Advanced RV website. It had just come in. I know where they came from and I know they were shipped to Advanced RV and no one else. But for the life of me I have no idea how this is germane to the subject here.

[mumkin]

Me neither... but seems to be not the first time that things go off topic on this and all boards. LOL Not sure why it would be a secret where any manufacturer gets its platforms. I can't recall the year that MB divorced Dodge... will have to google it. (it was 2008 )

Advanced's sources are sort of irrelevant anyway as I mentioned that I was speaking of GWV when they were in Winnipeg.

[Fastpaddler1]

Frozen pipes in Winnipeg has been a fact of life since I skated on the the flooded pasture out back near my home. But was that the main reason to leave Winnipeg with some local support and good staff. Maybe the grass was greener down South. I hope they survive somehow though.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Fastpaddler1

Frozen pipes in Winnipeg has been a fact of life since I skated on the the flooded pasture out back near my home. But was that the main reason to leave Winnipeg with some local support and good staff. Maybe the grass was greener down South. I hope they survive somehow though.

I think they got sold a pile of "stuff" about how green the grass was and didn't have the BS filter tuned in well enough to know it.

It is too bad, because they filled a nice spot in the line of available Bs.

[mlts22]

I hope they settle their matters soon. Right now is a booming time for class "B"s, and they really need to focus on getting a 2016/2017 model out if they are planning to go back into production next year.

In just a year, the "B" industry has seen some changes. Multiplexed wiring, drop-in lithium battery banks (like what Wincrasher mentioned), and many other innovations are being done. Unlike 10 years ago where the biggest improvement was just fiddling with the floorplan layout, things change fairly quickly, especially with the three-way race between good van chassis models.

[wjcreation]

I was probably the only one who publicly posted on Sterling RV Inc's FB page about our substantial deposit. There's no recourse for us and we were not the only ones. Dave never contacted us prior to their demise nor after - once he received our deposit communications were zilch!

[wincrasher]

If they haven't filed bankruptcy, you could always sue them for breach of contract. You might have a better chance than waiting for bankruptcy where you'd just be an unsecured creditor.

[Bruceper]

Sue them before the bankruptcy filing, that may place you higher up in line when it comes down to it.