Gas vs Diesel

[jon]

In 2015 my Sprinter 4x4 arrived and life was perfect. I finally had a van to convert that I could take on ski trips. After a learning curve with the part time AWD system I seemed to have smooth sailing ahead.
Then the diesel engine problems started. I started loosing power after driving in stop and go traffic. It was just like my 2000 diesel golf used to act when the exhaust manifold used to clog. I thought the DEF system solved that problem but I guess not.

First time the dealer couldn't find any codes or problems so they updated the software and send me home.

Second time I was in CA and a x number of starts before limp mode came on so I was forced to drop it off at a CA dealer and rent a car for the rest of my vacation. They replace an oxygen sensor.

Then I just lived with it and became too busy for trips. I took it in a couple times but I don't remember what they did.

Right before the eclipse I took it in and told the dealer if it happened again I was going to shoot the van. The told me that CA put in the wrong OXY sensor part number so they replaced and assured me it was fine.

The last time while driving home from an eclipse trip it happened again and this time I was lucky to make it over the mountain pass. Finally, a check engine light came on. I called the dealer and let them know I was bringing the damn thing back. This time they replaced the crank shaft position sensor and after a 4000 mile road trip it seems fixed.

It took over a year to fix.
This could just be my luck, but diesel engines have such complicated emissions systems it seems there is a greater chance of problems.
Plus now Mercedes says not to idle the engine for extended periods.

I plan to sell my Sprinter van and buy a gas van where I can take short trips and idle if I want and not worry about when the next time "it" happens.

Has anyone had similar experiences?

[BBQ]

.

the bad oxy sensor is notorious for the 2015; you are not the only one who got stranded.

[Phoebe3]

We bought a diesel in 1996, partly because it could be idled for extended periods on only a tiny bit of fuel. We got caught in a pile-up in Cajon pass one January and ran the engine for four hours, staying toasty warm in sub-freezing temps. That engine has over 200K miles on it and runs great.

When we looked for a B, we started with a diesel in mind. Then we did a lot of research and it seems that if you have a pre 2007/2008 version, you are OK. After that, they seem to have quite a lot of issues as a result of the emissions equipment.

As a result of that research, we bought a gas engine. It has less torque and the new gas engines run at much higher RPM than the old ones so we aren't sure how long it will last - probably not 200K miles.

[DCHitt]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

As a result of that research, we bought a gas engine. It has less torque and the new gas engines run at much higher RPM than the old ones so we aren't sure how long it will last - probably not 200K miles.

In my young years we used to rebuild our gas engines after about 40 or 50K miles. Since then there have been lots of improvements in materials and oils. I don't think you can ware out a gas engine anymore.

[booster]

IMO, it is less about gas vs diesel when comparing longevity than it is to the design requirements. We are used to gas car engines, that are designed to last 100-200K miles and diesel truck engines that are designed to last 500K+ miles. Properly designed gas engines can be designed to last longer, but it is normally impractical because they are less fuel efficient and too expensive to run for those long lifespans.

With direct injection gas, and turbos on small engines, the fuel efficiency of gas engines is getting much closer to that of diesels. Now that diesels actually have to meet emissions, things are getting even closer.

The big question is if either gas or diesel will survive, or it will be all electric or other power source going forward.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by booster

IMO, it is less about gas vs diesel when comparing longevity than it is to the design requirements. We are used to gas car engines, that are designed to last 100-200K miles and diesel truck engines that are designed to last 500K+ miles. Properly designed gas engines can be designed to last longer, but it is normally impractical because they are less fuel efficient and too expensive to run for those long lifespans.

With direct injection gas, and turbos on small engines, the fuel efficiency of gas engines is getting much closer to that of diesels. Now that diesels actually have to meet emissions, things are getting even closer.

The big question is if either gas or diesel will survive, or it will be all electric or other power source going forward.

Mazda just announced a new line of high compression gas engines that purport to have economy the same as diesels. The "breakthroughs" in economy we are about to see really have nothing to do with engine design. It's the improvements in materials production at scale to produce affordable engines. They've known for decades how to make much more efficient engines - it's just a matter of the manufacturing tech making it possible to do things affordably.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

We bought a diesel in 1996, partly because it could be idled for extended periods on only a tiny bit of fuel. We got caught in a pile-up in Cajon pass one January and ran the engine for four hours, staying toasty warm in sub-freezing temps. That engine has over 200K miles on it and runs great.

When we looked for a B, we started with a diesel in mind. Then we did a lot of research and it seems that if you have a pre 2007/2008 version, you are OK. After that, they seem to have quite a lot of issues as a result of the emissions equipment.

As a result of that research, we bought a gas engine. It has less torque and the new gas engines run at much higher RPM than the old ones so we aren't sure how long it will last - probably not 200K miles.

There are Promasters for sale coming out of commercial duty with over 300k miles on them regularly. That's some pretty hard duty and I'd be happy to get that kind of longevity out of something in RV duty.

[Phoebe3]

Just a little back-of-the-envelope math with some pretty variable numbers:

If gas and diesel are both $3.50/gallon...

And the gas engine gets 15 miles per gallon...

And the diesel engine gets 22 miles per gallon...

And the diesel Sprinter costs $15,000 more to purchase than the gas Promaster or Transit...

You will have to drive approximately 200,000 miles before you have spent as much on gas as it cost you up front for the diesel.

Even if I pick more conservative numbers, it probably doesn't make sense to buy a diesel solely for the fuel savings.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

Just a little back-of-the-envelope math with some pretty variable numbers:

If gas and diesel are both $3.50/gallon...

And the gas engine gets 15 miles per gallon...

And the diesel engine gets 22 miles per gallon...

And the diesel Sprinter costs $15,000 more to purchase than the gas Promaster or Transit...

You will have to drive approximately 200,000 miles before you have spent as much on gas as it cost you up front for the diesel.

Even if I pick more conservative numbers, it probably doesn't make sense to buy a diesel solely for the fuel savings.

+1 +1


With the Ford ecoboost engine, you get 400 lb/ft of torque. There goes another edge the diesel used to enjoy.

[avanti]

I am hoping that my next rig will be all-electric. But if that doesn't happen, it will be gas. The diesel emissions stuff are not-ready-for-prime-time (much like the gas emissions devices of the 1980s). Moreover, I doubt that they will ever be--not for technical reasons but for economic ones. The VW incident caused serious harm to diesel's brand, and has really taken the wind out of the sails of new diesel development. As discussed above, the advantages are no longer significant, so the requisite R&D investments are unlikely ever to be made.

[gklugie]

Good to see a lively discussion on this topic. This topic has come up before, but it is always helpful. I like gasoline. Diesel bothers me on many levels... cost... emissions... repair... upkeep... noise.... smells. Fuel consumption and power are nice, but at what cost? Has anybody seen this article? https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/fatal...-tom-robertson I think Davydd brought up the fact that sprinters that are primarily road vehicles, and Mr. Robertson's experiences don't apply. Even so, exorbitant prices of diesel equipment, and paucity of reasonably-priced mechanics are enough to turn me off. ..... just my .02 cents!

[wincrasher]

Well, in my view, it really depends on the application.

Diesel makes no sense in automobiles any longer. Electric is taking over and gas cars are being phased out around the globe. I bought a Chevy Volt earlier this year - I use so little gas in it, my average MPG is over 250. Eventually, I'll get a pure EV for my commuter car.

In vans like our Class B's it's not so clear cut. The hill climbing of a diesel is effortless, and you get a much bigger van than the gas models. So if you want a 24' van and are pushing 12,000 lbs, I would think the driving dynamics of the Sprinter would be superior to the turbo gas motor in the biggest Transit. So consider payload and if you want to do any heavy towing in your comparison. In a shorter van, it's hard to beat the gas Promaster or Transit.

In big trucks, the diesel is a clear winner. Not only the torque, but you get exhaust breaking. My Silverado HD has given me great service, superior fuel economy and the maintenance costs have been reasonable. Whether driving it around town, or pulling my boat or a 5th wheel arcross mountains, I've gone further and faster than any gas truck could and for far less fuel expense. In big motorhomes, like Class A's, there is no comparison. The diesel is clearly superior as you also get nice accessories like air suspension and exhaust braking, as well as air brakes. You can't get those things on a gas chassis. It certainly is more expensive though - upfront cost, complexity and maintenance costs are all greater. But in return you get superior comfort, safety, fuel economy and ability to tow heavy loads.

[jon]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Well, in my view, it really depends on the application.

Diesel makes no sense in automobiles any longer. Electric is taking over and gas cars are being phased out around the globe. I bought a Chevy Volt earlier this year - I use so little gas in it, my average MPG is over 250. Eventually, I'll get a pure EV for my commuter car.

In vans like our Class B's it's not so clear cut. The hill climbing of a diesel is effortless, and you get a much bigger van than the gas models. So if you want a 24' van and are pushing 12,000 lbs, I would think the driving dynamics of the Sprinter would be superior to the turbo gas motor in the biggest Transit. So consider payload and if you want to do any heavy towing in your comparison. In a shorter van, it's hard to beat the gas Promaster or Transit.

In big trucks, the diesel is a clear winner. Not only the torque, but you get exhaust breaking. My Silverado HD has given me great service, superior fuel economy and the maintenance costs have been reasonable. Whether driving it around town, or pulling my boat or a 5th wheel arcross mountains, I've gone further and faster than any gas truck could and for far less fuel expense. In big motorhomes, like Class A's, there is no comparison. The diesel is clearly superior as you also get nice accessories like air suspension and exhaust braking, as well as air brakes. You can't get those things on a gas chassis. It certainly is more expensive though - upfront cost, complexity and maintenance costs are all greater. But in return you get superior comfort, safety, fuel economy and ability to tow heavy loads.

All of these advantages don't mean a thing if the damn thing isn't running....That's my experience

[BBQ]

.

Electric vehicles will take the majority of the market. The day will come, and it will come with a vengeance.

A friend who works for one of the Japanese car brands told me, his company has a production-ready electric car that can rival the Tesla (sans the autopilot). They are waiting for the right time to unleash it.

[jrobe]

I enjoy reading the gas vs diesel discussion but when it comes to Class B RV's it is mostly just an academic discussion. In the end, we have very few choices and for me other variables take precedence.

I would much rather have a reliable gas engine but it isn't available in a package that would interest me. The Promaster may be fine for some but the seats and driving comfort are completely intolerable for me. The Transit is a nice van and I like the Ecoboost engine but most of the Class B companies refuse to even build on it. The high roof model is also the only one I can stand up in but it looks like a complete afterthought for Ford. In the end, a diesel was the only option. Hopefully someday we will have better gas engine choices but we don't now.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by BBQ

+1 +1



With the Ford ecoboost engine, you get 400 lb/ft of torque. There goes another edge the diesel used to enjoy.

But I think you will find a Ford Transit with EcoBoost will be about the same price as a diesel Sprinter of same size and with similar equipment.


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

Electric vehicles will take the majority of the market. The day will come, and it will come with a vengeance.

A friend who works for one of the Japanese car brands told me, his company has a production-ready electric car that can rival the Tesla (sans the autopilot). They are waiting for the right time to unleash it.

European mandates were making a difference, but ultimately the Chinese announcement of outlawing gas cars has moved the market. Everyone wants a share of their market. Considerations for the US market are secondary - all the growth is in China. From the Chinese perspective, they see this as an industry where they can leapfrog everybody else and wind up exporting electric cars at low prices. I wouldn't underestimate their ability to be the global dominant players in a very short time. GM is clearly worried and making moves to counter it.

[Robert Ryan]

Actually in Europe new Diesels are coming out. BMW is working on a new generation.Reason diesels are used in cars in Europe, is that over 45% of passenger vehcles have them compared to 2% or had them in the US.
Commercial vehicles outside the US are diesel. Gas engined trucks ceased to exist in the 1950's.
No there is not a massive run on Hybrids or EV's despite the VW debacle. VW has said it will produce an EV or Hybrid version of it's 200 models by 2030. That is as an option. Appears most European manufacturers are pouring more than twice their development budgets into Petrol/Diesel improvements compared to EV's/ Hybrids

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

Actually in Europe new Diesels are coming out. BMW is working on a new generation.

Generally speaking, the opposite is true:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/02/b...emissions.html

BMW is an outlier:

BMW Diesel: A clear commitment to the development of new engines

You will always find outliers and die-hards, but the writing is on the wall.

[Phoebe3]

Thanks for the links to all the articles! Here's another one.

https://www.autovistagroup.com/news-...ing-8-year-old

A Swedish study found that the environmental impact for producing enough Kw to run a Tesla equals driving a gas vehicle for eight years. It doesn't say how often the Tesla's batteries need to be replaced.

The article does goes on to say that it is't fair to compare new technology with engineering that has been around for 100 years.

In other news, Ford says they will have an all electric crossover vehicle in 2020:

https://electrek.co/2017/05/18/ford-...ctric-vehicle/

Interesting discussion!