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Old 11-23-2022, 11:05 PM   #61
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Reading through this thread is hilarious! Humans just love to invent rules and complications. The answer is always more, never less. I just hope I'll have room in my van for the Official Campground Reservation Procedures and Rules Manual. LOL..
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Old 11-23-2022, 11:30 PM   #62
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Reading through this thread is hilarious! Humans just love to invent rules and complications. The answer is always more, never less. I just hope I'll have room in my van for the Official Campground Reservation Procedures and Rules Manual. LOL..

You already have the OCRP&RM. It is the internet


With every state being different and many having different rules for different parks within the state, you need the power of the web to find out what is actually going on, and hasn't changed again.
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Old 11-25-2022, 02:58 PM   #63
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I just ran across this on the Michigan reservations web site. Might be useful, even for short notice camping.


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An all-new feature alerts on the Michigan State Park & Harbor Reservations website lets you sign up for an email notification when a site becomes available for selected dates. Just click on the "Notify Me" button for the dates you've selected in your search
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Old 11-25-2022, 04:26 PM   #64
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I just ran across this on the Michigan reservations web site. Might be useful, even for short notice camping.
Nice.. I'm doing a petition to get Colorado to add multi-stage release of sites (6,3 and 1-month releases), and will the notify-me suggestion. Staged releases would be trivial to implement in code; notify is more complex as it has to obtain/track/use end-user emails but still should be straightforward. And for me a s a local would be even more useful since often even 1 month out I would be unwilling to book.

Colorado has 2 formal mechanisms for proposing changes; for those in other states, I would expect there also be similar mechanisms. In my view, threads like this are not just for venting.. they are learning and making things better.
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Old 11-26-2022, 08:45 PM   #65
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Allowing cancellation of a reservation up to 3PM on day of arrival for a full refund, minus the initial reservation fee, would encourage people to cancel so they can get most of their money back, even for a one-night reservation. Get rid of cancellation fees, period. This would free up sites for last minute reservers, and for FCFS campers who show up that afternoon hoping for a spot.
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Old 11-26-2022, 09:06 PM   #66
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Just for completeness:
Looking at from the perspective of the agency running the campground, refunding the reservation fee might be a stretch, since this is a sunk cost that cannot be recovered. Either the agency or the reservation service provider would have to bear this cost for every reservation, no matter how many times it is cancelled and rebooked.

I am not saying that this wouldn't be a good policy from the perspective of the end user, but I think it is most unlikely to be adopted by the campground administration. The argument would be that this fee pays for a service that was consumed when the reservation is first made, not when the campsite is occupied.
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Old 11-26-2022, 09:53 PM   #67
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Just for completeness:
Looking at from the perspective of the agency running the campground, refunding the reservation fee might be a stretch, since this is a sunk cost that cannot be recovered. Either the agency or the reservation service provider would have to bear this cost for every reservation, no matter how many times it is cancelled and rebooked.

I am not saying that this wouldn't be a good policy from the perspective of the end user, but I think it is most unlikely to be adopted by the campground administration. The argument would be that this fee pays for a service that was consumed when the reservation is first made, not when the campsite is occupied.
Agreed, the CCard companies already took the cut and any other processing costs are already there. And last min cancelation is unlikely to be resold-- which is why many places give back more $$ when you cancel farther out.


Maybe more of a consideration for both sides, if there is no penalty for cancelation, then people will book up anything that "might" fit the schedule and then cancel on that day. This would make impact the reservation system's effectiveness. On the other hand, giving 0% back when you cancel (100% lost) there is no incentive to cancel at all, even if you know you are not going.
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Old 11-26-2022, 09:54 PM   #68
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As much as it would be nice to have, true FCFS has been shown (at least to us) as impractical in very popular places. We went through the whole thing at Zion before they changed to reservations. It was like Walmart on Black Friday chaos.
Absolutely agreed. I remember one time at Zion, where the only way we got a spot was we got there really early and my wife cooked up something with the campground host who knew somebody was leaving or something. But we had worse at another campground I forget the name. It was truly dog-eat-dog with campers circling the campground asking people if they were leaving and what time, and then clogging up the roads parking by the campsite, hoping someone else didn't decide to challenge them on who got there first. That's exactly what happened to us, we were there first, but then another camper came along claiming that they were there the night before and had an agreement with the previous site owner that they had that site! Thus ensued an extremely unpleasant encounter after which my wife didn't talk to me for a week. The 80 y.o+ campground host, as you might expect, wasn't going to get into that battle.
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Old 11-27-2022, 12:41 AM   #69
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Just for completeness:
Looking at from the perspective of the agency running the campground, refunding the reservation fee might be a stretch, since this is a sunk cost that cannot be recovered. Either the agency or the reservation service provider would have to bear this cost for every reservation, no matter how many times it is cancelled and rebooked.

I am not saying that this wouldn't be a good policy from the perspective of the end user, but I think it is most unlikely to be adopted by the campground administration. The argument would be that this fee pays for a service that was consumed when the reservation is first made, not when the campsite is occupied.
Just for correctness, my recent suggestion allowed for not refunding the reservation fee. I simply called for doing away with the cancellation fee.
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Old 11-28-2022, 02:05 PM   #70
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I didn't want to read the OP wall of text can someone summarize in one sentence?
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Old 11-28-2022, 02:34 PM   #71
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I didn't want to read the OP wall of text can someone summarize in one sentence?

Only two words "it's complicated"
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Old 11-30-2022, 07:44 PM   #72
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I didn't want to read the OP wall of text can someone summarize in one sentence?
We faced a similar dilemma this spring as we undertook to finally 'read' Michener's 1,100pg epic "Alaska" as we began our 'commute' to that region. While not a short-cut, we ultimately opted for the 58 hour audio book edition.

By the way, we've been apprised by a couple of the generations following us that not only is punctuation and capitalization tedious and unnecessary, but when faced with an overly verbose author, one can succinctly respond: "TLDR".

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Old 06-29-2023, 04:51 AM   #73
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Default WSJ Article on campsite booking problems

The link (which also lets you see reader's comments on the article)
https://www.wsj.com/articles/campgro...=hp_lead_pos11

Campsites Are Fully Booked. They’re Also Half-Empty.
Campers frustrated by limited availability have prompted states to tighten reservation rules for no-shows

Rising interest in camping means prime sites are selling out across the country. So why do so many campsites sit empty on peak nights?

Online booking and cancellation fees mean there is little to gain in letting parks know you’re a no-show, campers say. Travelers who make multiple bookings before their plans are set, combined with weather events that reduce availability, make it seem harder than ever to find space.

Travelers looking to pitch their tents or park their RVs at beach campsites in California and lakeside spots in Minnesota are feeling this crunch. Short of showing up in person in hopes of a perfectly timed cancellation coming through, campers are often out of luck.

Dana Andresen, from Ventura, Calif., camps between six and eight months out of the year and says no-shows are common. “It’s been kind of shocking how many empty sites I see when I’m being told there’s nothing,” she says.

Andresen works for Naturalists at Large, an outdoor education company that takes California students on camping trips across the state. No-shows take spots away from people like her students, she says, many of whom are camping for the first time or even spending their first nights away from home.

At times, students have crowded into campsites, unable to spread into nearby empty ones because they don’t know whether anyone will show up, she says.

A California State Parks spokesman says the department gives priority to equitable access, but high demand often exceeds available inventory. He says the department works to make no-show sites available as soon as is appropriate.

The number of people who want to camp has jumped since the pandemic began, according to the Outdoor Industry Association, a trade group. It says that in 2022, 51.4 million people camped in the U.S.

States are responding to complaints over no-shows, making changes at campgrounds across the country. Minnesota started enforcing its no-show policy this spring after grumbling from campers. Proposed legislation in California would penalize those who bail on their spots.

“What we’re trying to do is ensure people actually show up to their reservation or cancel,” says Rebecca Bauer-Kahan, a California assemblymember representing parts of the Bay Area, who introduced a bill aiming to deter last-minute cancellations and no-shows in state parks.
Online pros and cons

Many public campgrounds have moved reservations online, which campsite managers say helps with staffing. Reservations also help reassure visitors that they will have a spot, unlike first-come, first-served campsites.

No-shows are difficult to track because not all campsites are staffed at check-in or checkout. But complaints about no-shows have increased, several state park officials say.

No-show policies vary widely by state, says Sascha Ohler, senior vice president for outdoor recreation at Tyler Technologies. The company provides online reservation software for state campground sites, including those serving Ohio and Florida.

In some cases, campsite managers can’t release spots until the morning after the no-show visitor’s scheduled arrival date to accommodate anyone having problems reaching the site. Campsite hosts say this means they have to deal with angry customers who don’t understand why they can’t immediately claim a campsite that appears to be empty.

No-shows complicate plans for both local and out-of-town campers, says Chris Wolstenholme, owner of Around the Park RV Rentals, a rental agency in Denver and Jackson Hole, Wyo.

He says many campgrounds often have little cellphone or internet reception, so it can be difficult for staffers to update campsite availability quickly.

California proposes tougher measures

Fees can deter visitors from canceling. Campground managers say fees are necessary to deter people from hoarding bookings they have no intention of using.

For California State Parks, which offers about 15,000 overnight camping sites, campers are charged $8 to cancel and lose the $8 nonrefundable reservation fee. If they cancel after 6 p.m. the day before arrival, they also lose the cost of one night’s stay, which could be $10 or $75, depending on the site.

Some people do the math and don’t bother canceling, says Bauer-Kahan, who introduced the legislation. Others forget about their reservations made months earlier.

The proposed legislation would eliminate the cancellation fee. It would convert any cancellations made within seven days of the reservation’s start date into a credit that could be used to make a reservation in the next five years.

It would also increase penalties for those who don’t cancel and don’t show, meaning they wouldn’t get refunds or credits. People who don’t show up three times in a calendar year will be limited in making future reservations.

A spokesman says California State Parks doesn’t comment on pending legislation.

Campers at most California state sites can only make online reservations up to two days before arrival, so no-shows don’t appear on the reservation site in time for last-minute campers. The bill would require availability to update in real time.

The California bill is making its way through the legislature, and recently passed the state’s assembly with overwhelming support.
Campground changes

Wyoming had success eliminating cancellation fees, says Nick Neylon, the state parks deputy director. State campsites implemented a stricter no-show policy in 2021. No-shows are down 81% so far in 2023 compared with last year, he says.

He also credits more severe penalties for repeated no-shows. On the third offense, campers’ reservations are canceled for the remainder of the season. On the fourth offense, they lose the ability to make any reservations for the year.

Neylon says the state has only had to use that final option a couple of times.

Representatives from Recreation.gov, which lets people reserve campsites on federal lands, say they also have noticed an increase in no-show complaints. Campers previously received one email reminder seven days before their reservation. Now, to help people remember to cancel, the system sends four email reminders, including one as early as three months ahead and another two days before arrival.
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Old 06-29-2023, 06:31 PM   #74
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Easy fix. Make everyone check in to their campsite by 1400 - in person or by phone or text or lose their campsite and their fee. Let the campground resell the campsite to first come, first served at 1400.
Florida state parks already make it mandatory to check in before 5PM by phone to get the gate code because the gates close at dark. It would not take much to move the time back to 2 or 3 and allow resale of the sites.

An alternative is to “blacklist” anyone who does not cancel (maybe after 2 times) and not allow them to book any additional reservations for a year. That would be a good incentive to cancel. There is little reason why someone could not cancel or call the campground the day of the reservation, if they will not be there or will be late arriving.
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Old 06-30-2023, 12:50 PM   #75
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And the blacklist by license plate number, not name.
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Old 06-30-2023, 02:18 PM   #76
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And the blacklist by license plate number, not name.


I think Montana or Wyoming has put it the blacklist suspension in it's new rules for campsite non shows and cancellations.


The article I saw said they only have had to suspend a couple of persons because just the threat of being banned got the results they wanted.
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