Florida State Parks - Really?

[RTRanger]

We’ve been snowbirding to Florida for years, it’s always been hard to book sites at desirable State Parks - and even desirable County Parks.

I think the parks are leaning evermore towards catering to residents. The residents don’t really like us that much (more like hate us) judging from what they say on local Facebook groups. I think you just have to face the facts that you just can’t go “willy nilly” around the state and expect to stay wherever you feel like. The snowbird season starts earlier and earlier too, we’re here by mid-October and go back in mid April or May. Lots of our neighbors are doing the same.

When we were shopping for property in Florida a couple of years ago, we were going to come down in July - we couldn’t find a state park to stay in any where near where we wanted to be. So it isn’t just peak season.

And to add injury to insult: property prices have doubled in the last year.

Supply and demand is a bitch.

[tgregg]

Winston,

The Florida State Park website clearly states that after 1:00PM any site unreserved and unoccupied can rented to walk-ins on a first come first serve basis. Seems like they have good policy if it's followed correctly.

You were probably talking to a poorly trained, misinformed or disgruntled employee / volunteer who wasn't aware of Florida's policy.

I think you should send an "edited" version of your post to someone in the Florida State Parks so they become aware that their policies are being adhered to.

[Rocinante]

Yup, we love using Harvest Hosts when there's no need for overnight air conditioning. Every experience has been good, and most have been interesting. We have yet to take advantage of the Boondockers Welcome half of the franchise, but we will probably also give that a shot next season.

For those who want to camp in the most popular campground in the most popular parks, sometimes there are campgrounds nearby that are less well known but still provide a good experience within reasonable distance of the park. This is more likely true for big national parks than for State Parks, but it's still something to keep in mind if you get into a jam and need a spot, any spot, near where you want to be.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by CanuckRV

How fast do state/national parks fill up when they open up 6 months out for reservations during the summer season?

Minnesota has 8 coveted state parks strung along the north shore of Lake Superior from Duluth to the Canadian border. You better have your browser open for reservations at midnight 365 days ahead to get a campsite. It is that bad.

I would never have thought to make a reservation 17 years ago when we started Class B camping nor ever tent camping 30+ years before.

We haven't joined Boondockers Welcome as we haven't had a need though we stay overnight at many homes of fellow campers we know from our travels and rallies. For example when we go to Advanced RV to ARV Fest in Ohio exactly to the mile 800 miles away from our house we have two houses and friends knowing we are going that invite us to stay overnight.

[booster]

Originally Posted by tgregg

Winston,

The Florida State Park website clearly states that after 1:00PM any site unreserved and unoccupied can rented to walk-ins on a first come first serve basis. Seems like they have good policy if it's followed correctly.

You were probably talking to a poorly trained, misinformed or disgruntled employee / volunteer who wasn't aware of Florida's policy.

I think you should send an "edited" version of your post to someone in the Florida State Parks so they become aware that their policies are being adhered to.

Careful choice of words they have it that is exactly how it is stated. It would help in less popular places that don't fill by reservations long before the use date, but would do nothing for the popular places because they would have everything held in reservations except last minute cancellation. They should put in the extra rule that unoccupied but reserved sites are forfeited at some later time unless they are called to be told the renters are getting there later. That would help everyplace and get rid of at least a bunch of the unused sites going to waste.

[Rocinante]

Reserved and paid for sites are not forfeited if the camper doesn't show up that day, for the simple reason that not everyone can get to their campsite by 3pm, or whatever - and they have already paid in full for at least one night. That's the whole point of a reserved site. People who don't show up abuse this to some degree, though it's not always deliberate, but it's a tough problem to solve when a prospective camper is willing to eat the cost of a single night for their own convenience. It's like not showing up for a hotel room you reserved. Yeah, the room goes empty, but you still pay.

That said, if they are a no-show the first night or two of a multi-night reservation, some campgrounds have a policy of canceling the reservation and notifying the camper via email, refunding some portion of the remainder when they can, and then re-selling those sites either on the reservation website or on a first-come-first-served basis.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

Reserved and paid for sites are not forfeited if the camper doesn't show up that day, for the simple reason that not everyone can get to their campsite by 3pm, or whatever - and they have already paid in full for at least one night. That's the whole point of a reserved site. People who don't show up abuse this to some degree, though it's not always deliberate, but it's a tough problem to solve when a prospective camper is willing to eat the cost of a single night for their own convenience. It's like not showing up for a hotel room you reserved. Yeah, the room goes empty, but you still pay.

That said, if they are a no-show the first night or two of a multi-night reservation, some campgrounds have a policy of canceling the reservation and notifying the camper via email, refunding some portion of the remainder when they can, and then re-selling those sites either on the reservation website or on a first-come-first-served basis.

IMO, it is a pretty big understatement to say that only a few abuse the no show policies when we routinely see 10-20% of sites empty some popular places. The fact that the fee isn't forfeited is a big incentive to abuse the system. Is it really that much of a hassle to pick up the phone and say you are showing up later or that you aren't coming at all? To me that would camper courtesy that we should all do. Giving up the site fee gives more people a chance to get in and gives a reason to call ahead so you don't lose the fee and the site if you have more than one day reserved. Some campgrounds have even started to put in penalties, I have been told by others, if you are a chronic reserve and cancel person that reserves a bunch of weekends over a summer and then on uses one of them or some other manipulation. I have watched a couple of campgrounds on the north shore of Superior in Minnesota and routinely see sites open up a day or two before a busy time and many of them appear to have been booked quite far ahead. Same is true in Custer State Park which we are very familiar with.

[Rocinante]

It feels like you largely misinterpreted what I said, but you go right ahead, I guess.

People should of course be courteous, getting on the reservation website to cancel their reservation if they won't make it. We did that when we had entry tickets to visit Arches NP one day when we knew we wouldn't be going. We got zero dollars back because the cancellation fee ate up all the reservation fee they pretended to give back, but we did it anyway so someone else could get into the park that day. Not everyone sees it that way.

So, guess what? If they cancel a one-night campsite stay, they get zero dollars back. - Zero. - So, there's no financial incentive for the one-nighters to cancel their reservation when they realize they won't be making it. In fact, since they won't get any money back, there's a kind of perverse incentive for them to "stick to the man" by not cancelling, because they are angry about not getting anything back when they free up a site. So, this problem goes in multiple directions.

BTW, I'm not just someone with opinions, though I have those too. As I noted earlier in this thread, I'm a volunteer camp host who has worked at some of the largest and busiest national park campgrounds in the US, including Acadia NP, and Glacier NP. By now, I've seen it all and then some.

[avanti]

Here is a very simple proposed rule:

Any 'late check-in' (say, after 3:00PM) requires a 'day of' reconfirmation in the form of an email, text message or phone call from the reservation holder. If you send such a reconfirmation, the site is yours unconditionally. Otherwise, the reservation is cancelled and the site becomes available for walk-ins.

Seems to me that in this day and age, this isn't much a burden on anyone. If you think you might possibly arrive late, you can send a text at any time during the day. Wouldn't reduce the wasted sites to zero, but I bet it would get pretty close.

[Rocinante]

It's an interesting idea. However, answering the phones all afternoon is something of a burden, so that would actually be an issue. Campgrounds aren't staffed to answer calls, at least not at National Parks. I wish there was an easier answer, I really do, because as a host I really hated seeing reserved sites go empty when we were officially 100% booked and not allowed to accept walk-ins.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

It's an interesting idea. However, answering the phones all afternoon is something of a burden, so that would actually be an issue. Campgrounds aren't staffed to answer calls, at least not at National Parks. I wish there was an easier answer, I really do, because as a host I really hated seeing reserved sites go empty when we were officially 100% booked and not allowed to accept walk-ins.

It wouldn't have to go the park, probably should go to the reservation company first anyway as they are the ones that can make it quickly available again for a new or same day reservation. Simple call or text, as Avanti mentioned, and could be automated for both ways easily. Just call, punch in you reservation number and then do a yes or no for confirmation or a typical push one for confirm or two for cancel. Spoken commands are also getting much better lately also, which would be even easier to do.


There will always be those that don't cancel and have enough money to eat all the fees and charges, but having a ban on them after repeated episodes could probably help that issue.

[Winston]

Originally Posted by tgregg

Winston,

The Florida State Park website clearly states that after 1:00PM any site unreserved and unoccupied can rented to walk-ins on a first come first serve basis. Seems like they have good policy if it's followed correctly.

You were probably talking to a poorly trained, misinformed or disgruntled employee / volunteer who wasn't aware of Florida's policy.

I think you should send an "edited" version of your post to someone in the Florida State Parks so they become aware that their policies are being adhered to.

Smiling as we re-read our post pondering your proposed edit . . . :~)))

Even assuming we were talking to a "misinformed" employee . . . there remains the issue of locking the gate at 6pm . . . another tidbit learned in this same conversation. Hard to claim an unoccupied site when entrance to the park is barred.

[Winston]

It never fails. When discussing 'no-shows' and the consequences thereof, we always hear:

"There's nothing we can do, because they paid for it."

Can't we agree that our state and national parks, and their associated campgrounds, are precious natural resources that are in short supply? Should it not be the primary duty of park administrations - - as stewards of these precious natural resources - - to implement policies that insure their greatest utilization?

Or is our policy to be - - as with most of life - - money driven?

"I paid for it, thus, I have the right to waste it."

[Rocinante]

Please don't put words in my keyboard. I never said that.

There are definitely things that can and should be done. For example, if people cancel a paid camping reservation on the same day prior to 3pm, they should get all their money back. No cancellation fees. No retained money - the person gets all their money back, every penny. They shouldn't have to call, either. Just open up an app or web browser, or click on a "Cancel me" link in the reservation confirmation email, cancel the reservation, the money is fully 100% refunded, and the spot immediately shows up as available so rangers can sell it at the campground kiosk. Easy, easy, easy. That's how you encourage and then reward considerate behavior that also benefits the campground, other campers, and the park as a whole.

[@Michael]

Wyoming has an interesting take:

Refund Policy: Full refunds (minus the reservation fee) will be offered for cancellations made on or before the day of arrival. No refunds will be given for unused days/nights if a visitor leaves early.

[...]

No-Show Reservations Cancelled: If someone doesn’t show up for their reservation by 11 am the day following arrival (no-show), their reservation is not automatically cancelled. Wyo Parks staff have to physically visit the site to confirm it is empty then go into the system to cancel the reservation. This requires staff time and delays the site becoming available for others! Please be courteous and cancel your reservation if you won’t use it.

No-Show Penalties: When a customer doesn't arrive to their site by 11 am the day following their scheduled arrival, they are considered a 'no-show'. No-shows are a no-no! If you aren't able to use your reservation, please cancel so another family has the opportunity to enjoy the site.

Repeat offenders are tracked in the system, and the following penalties may be applied:

1. - 1st and 2nd No-Show: Reservation cancelled (with no refund)
2. - 3rd No-Show: All reservations for the year cancelled (with no refunds)
3. - 4 or more: Suspension of reservation privileges

[Emphasis is mine]

[booster]

Originally Posted by @Michael

Wyoming has an interesting take:



[Emphasis is mine]

I like that system a lot, especially the progressive penalties for repeated no shows. Very similar to what I had suggested earlier based on rules I had heard about but not seen.


Doesn't help to prevent single day reservation showups much, but the progressive penalties would certainly help a lot if they are chronically no shows.

[N147JK]

When folks say "I can't get there by such-and-such a time" that simply isn't true. It may not be convenient to get there at such-and-such a time, but yes, it's always doable. Example: "I have to drive a long way". Solution: drive a long way to get yourself close, then get there early the next day. A plan can always be made to make it work. But Winston has it right - unfortunately, money has been allowed to become the deciding factor.

[Punkinhead]

Originally Posted by N147JK

When folks say "I can't get there by such-and-such a time" that simply isn't true. It may not be convenient to get there at such-and-such a time, but yes, it's always doable. Example: "I have to drive a long way". Solution: drive a long way to get yourself close, then get there early the next day.

So someone with limited vacation needs to take an extra day and take their kids out of school a day early because you don't believe in reservations? And after "getting close" where exactly are they going to stay the night before trying to get to their ultimate destination?

[Snowy]

It seems like people have a diverse set of reasonable but conflicting needs, from making sure they will have a site to being able to wander around without plans. Both of these modes of travel should be accommodated IMHO. So if i were king, i'd start each park with some target, say 50% reservation spaces and 50% first come, first served (FCFS) spaces, and adjust rapidly based upon demand. They could also track what types of sites are demanded by reservers vs FCFSers, and maybe make reservation sites more like those desired by the reservers. There should be limits on the maximum amount set aside for reserved space so every park has at least one or some minimum percentage of FCFS sites. As far as regulating reserved space, Wyoming seems to have a better program than Florida. If i were king, i'd try to understand as many of the different systems that have been tried here in the US and abroad as practicable, use that to design a couple of reasonable policies, and conduct surveys of campers to try to decide the best policies. I'd implement the best plan(s), but conduct experiments with rule changes here and there to see how they work out, and whether different rules should apply to different or different types of campgrounds. These rules can always be revised by looking at demand numbers and camper input. A national system could be setup and states and localities could opt in and out, to try to reduce the administrative burden for all. Finally, as king i'd be happy to pay for it out of the royal treasury, but i don't think the cost would be much of an addition to what is already being spent. At least it shouldn't.

[@Michael]

Originally Posted by Snowy

So if i were king, i'd start each park with some target, say 50% reservation spaces and 50% first come, first served (FCFS) spaces, and adjust rapidly based upon demand.

Minnesota State Parks did this up until a few years ago. The rangers that I talked to said that for popular campgrounds it didn't work. Families were showing up at 7pm on Friday not knowing if they had a site, getting turned away and having to either drive another hour to the next park or head back home.

Their solution, which I support, is to require all sites to be reserved but to accept reservations on the same day. That allows last-minute campers to secure a site prior to leaving home and without having to drive from park to park looking for an open site. It does however, make it unlikely that one will find a site at a popular campground at the last minute.

In theory - as suggested in this and other threads, an alternative would be to hold back a small number of sites from being reserved until a week (or a day) before, allowing last-minute campers a shot at a site. If too many are held back though, sites will go empty.