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[W9TR]

I am an admin for the “Thor Sequence and Tellaro Owners and Wannabes” FB group. The advantage is very knowledgeable owners who have first hand experience with the specific components and systems in these vans. 3800 members, 3000 of which were active last month. The disadvantage is that, not unlike this forum, there are a lot of different systems and configurations to deal with so sometimes well-meaning people post incorrect information that is irrelevant and confusing. And, well, it’s a FB group so the files section and search are not great.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by W9TR

The disadvantage is that, not unlike this forum, there are a lot of different systems and configurations to deal with so sometimes well-meaning people post incorrect information that is irrelevant and confusing. And, well, it’s a FB group so the files section and search are not great.

There is an issue that we have a lot on the Roadtrek group(s). The glaring difference between the electrical systems of the lithium versus AGM rigs are a constant... and now that they have added the Firefly system that changed a lot of the correction procedures...

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by mumkin

.................. The glaring difference between the electrical systems of the lithium versus AGM rigs are a constant... and now that they have added the Firefly system that changed a lot of the correction procedures...

What is the glaring difference?

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

What is the glaring difference?

It's a bit complicated for those of us who have had AGMs for years... but you have new readings (12.6 ain't a full charge anymore)... you have shut downs of the lithiums where you have to figure out why... getting them back up to take a charge is not just "plug in" or take a drive... there is an AGM "kicker battery" in the mix that you also have to keep charged to do a re-start of the lithiums... the interplay between lithium/AGM/underhood generator is a factor... best have a little jumper box so you can jump start the inverter to get things charging again... or you could jump the UHG. Most of this is figured out eventually with long instruction lists of steps to try. Then they added the firefly which adds another wrinkle to the process.

When it works, as it does for most, it is a boondocker's dream... but

I made sure that I had only AGMs... give me a KISS system.

[Davydd]

My lithium ion batteries are designed to shut down at 20% state of charge or any other percent I desire to set it above 20%. When they shut down, I have to start the engine and there is a toggle button I have to hold down for about one minute and then the batteries come back online. A higher voltage than 12.6 is full charge to 100%. When it reaches 100% they stop charging and then drop from electrical use to a lesser percent to shut down again or if in storage and on shore power a set percentage. There is no AGM kicker battery you have to keep charged. My first lithium batteries were 6 years old with no perceivable loss. My current van with lithium ion is almost 4 years old. I tested the shut down and restore with both vans.

With lithium ion batteries you can get higher amp hours because they are much lighter than AGMs and AGMs need too much space to equal the amp hours, and are not as efficient you can achieve with lithium ion in a Class B already deficient in space or weight you can have. With higher amp hour capacity you need an UHG because your engine AGM cannot output the AHs in enough time idling or even driving. Solar would be a drop in the bucket and couldn't keep up with your electrical use not even in June 21, with clear skies. I elected this time to go without solar since the UHG was much more efficient. I can recharge my batteries in under 10 minutes of engine idling than the equivalent recharge of one 100w solar panel all day in the summer soltice on a clear day. It's a moot point with my current van with this roof space.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by mumkin

It's a bit complicated for those of us who have had AGMs for years... but you have new readings (12.6 ain't a full charge anymore)... you have shut downs of the lithiums where you have to figure out why... getting them back up to take a charge is not just "plug in" or take a drive... there is an AGM "kicker battery" in the mix that you also have to keep charged to do a re-start of the lithiums... the interplay between lithium/AGM/underhood generator is a factor... best have a little jumper box so you can jump start the inverter to get things charging again... or you could jump the UHG. Most of this is figured out eventually with long instruction lists of steps to try. Then they added the firefly which adds another wrinkle to the process.

When it works, as it does for most, it is a boondocker's dream... but

I made sure that I had only AGMs... give me a KISS system.

Thank for explanation, I suspected higher complexity of Li over AGM being the difference. Since 2013 I found my 230 Ah battery capacity with PV or shore or alternator energy sources being sufficient for my needs. Recent Booster’s excellent writeup of his Lithium experience helped me to stay with AGM in replacing my 10 years old batteries.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

With higher amp hour capacity you need an UHG because your engine AGM cannot output the AHs in enough time idling or even driving.

This is correct for a Sprinter, because of MB's severe restrictions on power takeoff. But it is not true of Transits. You have an option of ordering either one or two 250A alternators from the factory. With a single alternator, people routinely report 70A at idle and 120A during stop-and-go driving. With dual alternators, at least 250A continuous is available at 1500rpm. That is 3KW! All of this is from the Ford-provided fused customer takeoff ports. If you go directly to the battery and observe the Ford load shed signal, you can do even better.

Our rig is set up to charge at ~1.8kW. That is conservative, but it is more than adequate for our usage pattern. As far as I can tell, I can draw that all day long at idle.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

This is correct for a Sprinter, because of MB's severe restrictions on power takeoff. But it is not true of Transits. You have an option of ordering either one or two 250A alternators from the factory. With a single alternator, people routinely report 70A at idle and 120A during stop-and-go driving. With dual alternators, at least 250A continuous is available at 1500rpm. That is 3KW! All of this is from the Ford-provided fused customer takeoff ports. If you go directly to the battery and observe the Ford load shed signal, you can do even better.

Our rig is set up to charge at ~1.8kW. That is conservative, but it is more than adequate for our usage pattern. As far as I can tell, I can draw that all day long at idle.

Yep, as I have mentioned several times in other discussions, charge rate recommendations for lithium seem to be getting very much more conservative lately, often in the .2 to .4C range. IIRC Avanti has about 10KW so he is actually a little under .2C and it is a good decision, I think, based on how all this stuff is heading. We will have a less capacity in the lithium bank, but will be just about at .2C on ours at about 125 amps. We will also reduce amps at idle to about 60 or so to reduce engine strain and heat generation under the hood. We have the capacity to charge at 300 amps but will not be doing that.


I think we will be seeing more of the load shedding type tech that Transit is using as it just plain makes sense. The OEMs know what things do to engines and other parts, but they will not tell us about them, so if they want to shed power under certain conditions there are probably very valid reasons to do so.


I think the days of very high charge rates of up to 3C are going away quickly, although they really never existed for the big banks anyway (660ah hour bank charging at 1800amps ain't gonna happen anyway), for instance). Small banks is where it really shows up, and now that many 1-200ah lithium banks are being used, charge rate damage is probably showing up more often, making the battery manufacturers react by reducing recommended charge rates.


Lithium will still have an overall charge time advantage over AGM due to the lack of the long tapering section of the charge (4-6 hours) but they will be losing out on actual charge rates and be about the same.

[avanti]

One nice thing about our DC-AC-DC charging scheme with the Victron/Cerbo charger is that changing the charge current is just a couple of taps on the Cerbo's touch screen. The charger thinks the charge current is coming from shore power, and the draw is very easily modified. So, if I wanted to splurge with a higher charge rate under special circumstances, it would be easy to do. Of course, this could be automated as well. I am still feeling my way.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

One nice thing about our DC-AC-DC charging scheme with the Victron/Cerbo charger is that changing the charge current is just a couple of taps on the Cerbo's touch screen. The charger thinks the charge current is coming from shore power, and the draw is very easily modified. So, if I wanted to splurge with a higher charge rate under special circumstances, it would be easy to do. Of course, this could be automated as well. I am still feeling my way.

I thought the Victron integrated systems would allow things like that, and it is a very good feature. The Wakespeed alternato rregulator we are using allows you to set the amps to the battery (shunt measured), but they don't yet have an interface to do it without opening the unit and plugging in to a USB port and using a wired app to change the setting. I think they need to have the wireless changes on the fly available these days, if they expect to be on the leading edge of the technology. They are way ahead on most everything else, though, so hopefully they will catch up soon as using the wakespeed could eliminate the need for a B to B charger and the space it consumes, and it will also communicate with a Victron system, but I don't know if it is just from the BMS for things like shutdowns and such or if you could also program though the Victron.

[Davydd]

You don't need two alternators to run your van so the second alternator is nothing but an UHG (Under Hood Generator). A term I was using because Mumkin used it. I always called it a second alternator. Running all day long I agree gas engines are capable of idling more but the wear and tear is greater than a diesel and not a pleasant task to idle in a campground more than necessary. The only reason diesel recommendations for idling no greater than two hours and then driving for 40 minutes is their mandated exhaust system which I don't like either. But that is moot too since I can recharge a days worth of electrical usage in a campground in about 30 minutes idling for 4 days and then a full battery to give me about two more days. Driving periodically like sightseeing would even be quicker. Most boondocking episodes are a day and never more than three for us when we could stay six days without driving. I could never stay anywhere six days without driving. Historically I took that into account and reduced my battery capacity with our current van. That's without solar or propane, BTW.

We did leave our van for two whole days to go over to Isle Royale NP and stay overnight in September but we were protected by Autogen which would start our engine and idle at an arbitrary setting of 40% SOC and charge back to 100% which would take a little over an hour and shut off when full. It was never close since an unoccupied van uses way less electricity. I knew I could have left it off but it was mostly for ease of mind. Autogen is keyless, the van was locked, you can't drive off because the engine would shut off, and in a secure locked parking lot. Otherwise I would never have Autogen on without being in the vicinity of the van.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

You don't need two alternators to run your van so the second alternator is nothing but an UHG (Under Hood Generator). A term I was using because Mumkin used it.

Agree. But as my numbers show, you don't need the second Transit alternator to keep even a large bank charged unless you want to fast charge at idle (which I do not particularly advocate). The base alternator is more than adequate.

My only point was that your statement that you can't get enough amps from a single engine alternator to charge a lithium bank is only true of Sprinters (although I don't know about Promasters).

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

Agree. But as my numbers show, you don't need the second Transit alternator to keep even a large bank charged unless you want to fast charge at idle (which I do not particularly advocate). The base alternator is more than adequate.

My only point was that your statement that you can't get enough amps from a single engine alternator to charge a lithium bank is only true of Sprinters (although I don't know about Promasters).

I assume that dual alternator Ford factory option is not reducing road clearance like ARV’s second alternator on Sprinters. On my old F350 both alternators were mounted on top of the engine.

[KurtFranz]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I made sure that I had only AGMs... give me a KISS system.

Works for me, however, I use my rig primarily as a mobile motel and take weekend camping trips here and there. Depends on how you are using the vehicle.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I assume that dual alternator Ford factory option is not reducing road clearance like ARV’s second alternator on Sprinters. On my old F350 both alternators were mounted on top of the engine.

How much road clearance do you need? I know that clearance is higher than a promaster almost anywhere and that Delco 330 amp alternator won't even fit in a Promaster. I know it is higher than any hitch on a Transit, Promaster and even a Sprinter and the approach angle is less. I know it is more than a Smartplug under bumper mount on a Transit.

Without measuring I suspect mine is about 16" clearance at least knowing some other dimensions on the van.

[Davydd]

OK. Getting back to Facebook. I won't be going out to my garage today to measure but I am curious. I've got to herd 100,000 people wanting to talk about a single type of sandwich sold mostly in four states in my Facebook group and I will spend most of the day making Neapolitan pizzas from scratch.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by KurtFranz

Works for me, however, I use my rig primarily as a mobile motel and take weekend camping trips here and there. Depends on how you are using the vehicle.

The addition of solar to my two Group 31 AGM system meant that I could boondock as long as I wanted... restricted only by the small tanks that come with a B. With the addition of the UHG (which IS just a second alternator), one can run the engine if you need to use the microwave or an hour or two of AC or to top up the batteries as needed. My system could run the fan all day... the fridge 24 hours a day... conservative use of lights... and charge my electronics.

What I find a waste is those that pay all the extra money for a lithium system (like Roadtrek's) and then nearly always plug in at a campground.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I assume that dual alternator Ford factory option is not reducing road clearance like ARV’s second alternator on Sprinters. On my old F350 both alternators were mounted on top of the engine.

Yes. Clear sailing:

IMG_0001.jpeg

Actually the second alternator is in roughly the same relative position as the Sprinter's:

Untitled 4.jpg

But, the bottom of the alternator is a good 8" above the lower strut, so no chance of damage.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

Yes. Clear sailing:

...........

Thank you. Low hanging alternator would be a big no-no for me. With my pretty much factory road clearance on my 2WD Sprinter I occasionally scrape the top of a heavily rutted forestry road. Broken alternator mounts could cause some heavy engine damage.

[ceoshank88]

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