Explosive Li-ion Energy Storage Accident

[markopolo]

Idleup posted the same thing here: https://www.irv2.com/forums/f59/expl...nt-502991.html and specifically referenced Volta after the first reply.

[booster]

I wonder how Battleborn is going to like having to put every battery in a steel enclosure? Somehow, I just don't see that happening.


AFAIK, I don't even think UL approval is particularly important to many builders or aftermarket folks. I have seen a lot more CE on things than UL. I think.


RIVA would probably be the only ones on the new built units, I think.

[markopolo]

Yes, it would be an RVIA thing for RVIA member RV manufacturers.

As you say, likely not an issue for Battle Born or Trojan or Renogy etc. if RV's don't come from the factory with those batteries installed.

A Google search turned up this: https://tsp.esta.org/tsp/StandardsWa...A_proposal.pdf

PROPOSAL#4: Add new sentence to the end of 2-3 Auxiliary Battery Installations. Lithium battery systems shall be listed and conform to the terms of the listing and manufacturers installation instruction.

and this:

PROPOSAL#1: In Section 1-7 Definitions change definition of low voltage as follows:Low Voltage (LV): An electromotive force rated at 60 volts, DC

I'm more interested in this:

PROPOSAL#5: Add new 2-6 Solar Installations as follows:2-6 Solar Installations. Permanently installed solar panels shall be provided with an accessible means of disconnect located between the solar panel and the controller. The disconnecting means shall indicate the off or on position and shall be marked “Solar disconnect”

[booster]

The last one certainly makes sense as it can leave a system hot even if the batteries are disconnected, not to mention potential damage to equipment from spikes.


3 panels in series could be over the 60v limit to be called low voltage if going by their Vmax specification.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

AFAIK, I don't even think UL approval is particularly important to many builders or aftermarket folks. I have seen a lot more CE on things than UL. I think.

That is kind of apples and oranges. CE is a European standard that (a) is legally required in many European countries and (b) covers issues besides safety. UL is a private US-based testing organization. It is the most prominent of several such agencies. Some standards organizations of the RVIA-ilk specifically require UL certification for safety-related devices, others permit certification by any such group. UL is limited to safety issues, CE is not.

Frankly, if UL or its competitors offered certs on a product category, I would think twice about purchasing any product that lacked such certification. These things have their own politics without doubt, but generally speaking the certification process saves many lives.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

That is kind of apples and oranges. CE is a European standard that (a) is legally required in many European countries and (b) covers issues besides safety. UL is a private US-based testing organization. It is the most prominent of several such agencies. Some standards organizations of the RVIA-ilk specifically require UL certification for safety-related devices, others permit certification by any such group. UL is limited to safety issues, CE is not.

Frankly, if UL or its competitors offered certs on a product category, I would think twice about purchasing any product that lacked such certification. These things have their own politics without doubt, but generally speaking the certification process saves many lives.

Certainly nothing wrong with independent testing, for sure. I do know UL in particular was very expensive when I was dealing with them 15+ years ago, and crazy picky on some stuff and lax on others. Can't say if it is still that way, but was a pain to deal with. CE was much easier to get approval from and much more practical in testing and rules. Early on, most of the business product liability insurance gave big discounts for UL, almost exclusively, as did the facility insurers if you qualified on getting only UL rated equipment. When imported stuff started to take over, many of the foreign suppliers had CE and got the rules changed to get similar treatment as UL and never got UL.



Personally, I do check for approvals, and often look them up if I can find the standard without having to pay a bunch for it. Often times I would find products that had some parts of it UL, but not the finished product having been tested as a finished product. Trying to get a product UL approved got crazy expensive if there were any non UL parts in it as you paid for full testing on all of those parts, too.



I am sure you still see a lot of UL requirements on public utility, government, etc major project stuff, as many of those have to be able to be done on shore.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Yes, it would be an RVIA thing for RVIA member RV manufacturers.

As you say, likely not an issue for Battle Born or Trojan or Renogy etc. if RV's don't come from the factory with those batteries installed.

A Google search turned up this: https://tsp.esta.org/tsp/StandardsWa...A_proposal.pdf

and this:

I'm more interested in this:

Quote:
PROPOSAL#5: Add new 2-6 Solar Installations as follows:2-6 Solar Installations. Permanently installed solar panels shall be provided with an accessible means of disconnect located between the solar panel and the controller. The disconnecting means shall indicate the off or on position and shall be marked “Solar disconnect”
__________________

My Mornigstar manual is very clear about having PV > Charge controller disconnect. I have CB but it is not very clearly marked “Disconnect”

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Quote:
PROPOSAL#5: Add new 2-6 Solar Installations as follows:2-6 Solar Installations. Permanently installed solar panels shall be provided with an accessible means of disconnect located between the solar panel and the controller. The disconnecting means shall indicate the off or on position and shall be marked “Solar disconnect”
__________________

My Mornigstar manual is very clear about having PV > Charge controller disconnect. I have CB but it is not very clearly marked “Disconnect”

I have a plainly labeled toggle switch on ours, right next to the battery disconnect switch.


To disable the controller, I have a fuse in the same area, so it is harder to wind up with the panels on and controller off.

[markopolo]

I'm all for testing and standards and have posted findings about ANSI 2005 vs 2009 Standard Proof Load tests for jack stands and about UL 1449 - Standard for Safety for Surge Protective Devices etc.

It is puzzling to me that the standards are not typically available to look up at no cost by end consumers. It is suggested that we buy products that meet certain standards but we don't know what the standard actually covers.

The cells in Trojan Trillium, Renogy & Relion batteries meet UL 1642 and that appears to cover:

Short-Circuit
Abnormal Charging
Forced Discharge
Crush
Impact
Shock
Vibration
Heating
Temperature Cycling
Low Pressure
Projectile Test

[avanti]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I'm all for testing and standards and have posted findings about ANSI 2005 vs 2009 Standard Proof Load tests for jack stands and about UL 1449 - Standard for Safety for Surge Protective Devices etc.

It is puzzling to me that the standards are not typically available to look up at no cost by end consumers. It is suggested that we buy products that meet certain standards but we don't know what the standard actually covers.

The cells in Trojan Trillium, Renogy & Relion batteries meet UL 1642 and that appears to cover:

Short-Circuit
Abnormal Charging
Forced Discharge
Crush
Impact
Shock
Vibration
Heating
Temperature Cycling
Low Pressure
Projectile Test

The various UL certs for Lithium batteries are summarized here:

https://www.ul.com/offerings/battery...-manufacturers

Note especially:

UL 1973, the Standard for Batteries for use in Stationary Vehicle Auxiliary Power and Light Electric Rail (LER) Applications

Superficially, it appears that the claim that UL 1973 is applicable to RVs is most likely nonsense, although I have no direct knowledge.

EDIT: I retract the above. See following msgs...

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by avanti

The various UL certs for Lithium batteries are summarized here:

https://www.ul.com/offerings/battery...-manufacturers

Note especially:


Superficially, it appears that the claim that UL 1973 is applicable to RVs is most likely nonsense, although I have no direct knowledge.

Don't you think the RV use of house batteries is "Stationary Vehicle Auxiliary Power"?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Don't you think the RV use of house batteries is "Stationary Vehicle Auxiliary Power"?

Hm..
Maybe you are right. "Stationary vehicle" is an odd way to put it -- I don't turn off my coach systems when the vehicle is in motion, but I suppose that may be what they meant.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Don't you think the RV use of house batteries is "Stationary Vehicle Auxiliary Power"?

There's a comma missing on the UL page Avanti linked to. It should be Stationary, Vehicle Auxiliary Power and Light Electric Rail (LER) Applications.

The part that applies to RV's is likely: Vehicle Auxiliary Power Applications

Still hoping that Idleup will let us know if the Xantrex batteries and Lithionics batteries are essentially the same (if he knows).

https://lithionicsbattery.com/produc...h-g31-battery/

125Ah Xantrex Lithium Ion Battery

Also, why are some of the batteries not UL 1973 listed?

UL1973 Listed*

*125 Ah / 12V & 300 Ah / 12V batteries excluded

What use are the not UL 1973 listed batteries from Lithionics and Xantrex intended for?

[markopolo]

You can search company names or the number on a product's UL sticker etc. in the UL database.

The three applications listed for UL 1973 are:

Stationary application
Light Electric Rail application
Vehicle Auxiliary Power application

This category covers battery system modules and packs, with or without additional circuitry and protective devices, intended for use in light electric rail (LER) and various stationary applications such as energy storage for wind turbines, and photovoltaic and uninterruptible power supply applications. This category covers modules and packs intended for vehicle auxiliary power (VAP) to power devices on vehicles such as RVs and campers, but not for traction power.

It seem clear that applications under Vehicle Auxiliary Power (VAP) are relevant to RV's and Campers.

For Rolls Battery, two lithium batteries meet UL 1973 with the Application listed as "Stationary".

GBS - GBS-12V100AH-B lithium battery is UL 1973 listed with conditions. The Application is listed as "Stationary".

Lithionics has lithium batteries in the database. The Application is listed as "Light Electric Rail" for all that came up in my searches.

Light Electric Rail applications:

This category also covers battery systems for use in light electric rail (LER) applications and stationary rail applications, such as rail substations. These battery systems are intended for installation within the rail car or within a sheltered stationary location, such as a rail substation. These battery systems may utilize regenerative braking from the trains as a source of energy for recharging and are intended for direct connection to the rail power lines. These devices are intended for balancing loads during peak hours, serving as an energy storage device during regenerative breaking of the trains, and as a source of emergency power to move trains to the nearest station during power outages.

The next step for anyone who relies on these Standards for purchasing decisions would probably be to find out the differences in testing between Stationary, Light Electric Rail and Vehicle Auxiliary Power.

Relion has products under UL 1642 and UL 2580.


Edit to add: I haven't yet found any batteries listed under Vehicle Auxiliary Power application yet. That makes me wonder if it is a new application for the Standard. Update: Vehicle Auxiliary Power application appears to have been part of the Standard since Feb 2018 so it's not new.

[Explorer]

I've been looking at the Coachmen Beyond with Li3, as a possible purchase. Here is a link to the "Lithionics" website, battery safety discussion. Their entire website is very informative, and they also discuss UL certification. They also have a "youtube" video.
https://lithionicsbattery.com/safety/
Just an FYI.

[jakegw2]

I think that this thread is missing a discussion of the most relevant way to evaluate Li-ion safety: How does it compare to the safety risks that RVs already have?

• By way of background be aware of the lithium chemistry options:
  
  1. Lithium Phosphate (LiPo4) - Has medium energy density and when shorted by a penetrating object will burn in a controlled fashion (like a wood fire). This is the chemistry used by (among others) Battleborn and Pleasureway.
     
  2. Nickle Metal Cobalt (NMC) - Has a very high energy density and when shorted will burn in an explosive manner like fireworks. As others have mentioned, this is the chemistry used by Volta (and Tesla) and installed by Winnebago. Cell phone batteries are almost always NMC chemistry to maximize battery capacity for size and weight.
     
     
• Relative safety of LiPo installed in an thin metal (e.g. strong enough to handle the weight, but not designed for additional armoring) exterior battery compartment vs. Gasoline:
  
  I would judge LiPo as safer than your RV gas tank. Assuming you avoid very cheaply built batteries the LiPo cells will be enclosed in very thick plastic (~1/4"). This is as good or better protection from penetrating objects as your gas tank, which on many vehicles is also made of plastic. The difference is that the LiPo battery will start a limited fire if it is penetrated while a gasoline tank penetration can cause an explosive fire.
  
  
• Relative safety of a NMC installed in an heavy-duty metal exterior battery compartment vs. Gasoline:
  
  I would judge NMC to be similarly dangerous to your RV gas tank. The additional armoring of systems like what Volta offers makes damage to the battery less likely than damage to the gas tank. I do however think the explosive type of fire that results if it is damaged to be slightly more dangerous than a gasoline explosion.
  
  
• Relative safety of a LiPo battery installed inside the RV vs. Propane appliances:
  
  I would judge the inside LiPo battery to be safer than propane refrigerators, but more dangerous then LP plumbing. Propane refrigerators are known to catch fire at times due to a variety of issues from mechanical failures to oil contamination from an LP fillup. The risk of an internal failure or penetration of the thick plastic enclosure on a quality LiPo battery is, in my judgement, lower than a typical LP refrigerator. In the event of a fire, the types of fire from both risk are very similar. Dangerous of course, but will start small and produce smoke that can provide a warning before it grows too large.
  
  LP plumbing problems can cause explosive fires that are far more dangerous than LiPo battery fires, however the odor of gas and use of propane detectors largely mitigate this risk.

I would recommend searching Youtube for penetration testing videos of LiPo and NMC batteries. It is very eye-opening to see how much of a difference there can be, and how much safer LiPo chemistry is. NMC produces the flaming cell phone effect, whereas LiPo will gently smoke and, with severe penetration, produce a small flame like you would get out of a cigarette lighter. I feel comfortable that LiPo is safe.

[markopolo]

A note for anyone who is new to learning about lithium batteries.

LiPo is a common abbreviation for lithium-ion polymer batteries. Those are not used as coach batteries in RV's. They are commonly used in personal electronics like your phone and RC equipment. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_polymer_battery

NMC is an abbreviation for Lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide batteries. A common use for those is to power electric cars. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...NMC_electrodes

LFP or LiFePO4 is an abbreviation for Lithium iron phosphate batteries. Those are used in RV's. Renogy, Battle Born, Trojan Trillium etc. are LiFePO4 batteries.

[JLO11111]

Ya know what else uses NMC batteries? Pretty much every electric and hybrid vehicle on the road today.