European vs North American Manufacturing Methods

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

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That said, there are ways to make things more efficiently, mostly by improving equipment and processes, but also by better training and treating the manufacturing crew with dignity. These kinds of things also have quite accurate payback periods in most cases, IMO, if the people doing them know what they are doing. Management routinely would deny anything more than a very short term payback project as all they were worried about the monthly/yearly bottom line and probably their bonuses.
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…..and these more efficient manufacturing technologies are missing in RV businesses in NA and I doubt they will ever come here in my lifetime. Unfortunately, upfront cost of these technologies is high but that investment pays back in lower product cost and higher quality.

I worked for a large corporation since mid-seventies, Deming’s or Juran’s quality philosophies were as important then as they should be now. Quality was not and is not free then and now, principle of diminishing return regarding product costs applies to all processes including quality control ones. From my perspective the statement “quality is not cheap” is a way to state “it is too expensive”

[Snowy]

I just looked at the financials of Thor and WGO and they both have had single digit net margins for years. These people are not exactly minting money, and they aren’t overcharging for crummy quality because they just aren’t making much money. So maybe it just costs more money to make quality stuff or they are idiots that can’t manufacture. In support of the idiot hypothesis, the European manufacturers seem to produce better RVs at reasonable prices. But I wouldn’t be quick too jump to that conclusion – Thor and WGO are big enough that I am sure they have traveled to Europe to study what they are doing there, and they have learned the basics of modern manufacturing (six-sigma and lean). Maybe they have looked at doing things differently and they interpret their market research studies as showing that changing their operations isn’t worth it in this market. I do know that the US RV industry is highly cyclical and this makes it difficult for people to justify large capital investments.

Perhaps illustrative is the WGO Boldt, which was WGO’s attempt to put something of higher quality on the market. They have now discontinued the Boldt. Did the Boldt fail because the market won’t support the cost of quality, or were WGO idiots who couldn’t bring more quality at a reasonable price point?

Also arguing against the idiot hypothesis, why haven’t European manufacturers brought their manufacturing expertise here? It would seem that there was money to be minted by being able to offer European quality at European prices here. Perhaps I am wrong that the Europeans really are better at improving on the quality/cost tradeoff. Perhaps there is just something about our market or workforce that makes it impossible to bring the European system here. Perhaps it just hasn’t happened yet. For example, although not a B, Wingamm seems to be trying to export Euro quality to the US market, but the price here isn’t cheap. Some say the Wingamm models sell for much less in Europe, and so Wingamm is gouging us. But if Wingamm is successful, and they really are minting money here through gouging, then other Euro OEMs will notice and start exporting too, and the competition will drive down prices for imported RVs. If this happens, the domestic OEMs will be forced to change or die. Perhaps the future is bright.

This brings to mind a case study on American Airlines we did at business school. After deregulation the cost of air travel got much cheaper but the quality of the experience dropped a lot. American tried to offer more leg room and better service for a slightly higher price, but customers would always choose the lowest cost flight no matter how much American tried to differentiate itself as the quality airline. American had to drop the quality-differentiation strategy. We all like to complain about how crummy air travel is, but it turns out that we collectively won’t pay for a better experience, and so we have the crummy system we “want.”

[Punkinhead]

I've never looked at a Euro van so I have no first hand knowledge. Is "Euro Quality" really a thing or is it something that just keeps getting repeated? I'm not talking about design innovation, I'm talking about quality. Do they really use better materials and have better quality programs in their factories?

Over the decades I've worked in plants all over the world and never considered Euro quality any better than North American or Asian. It was always 100% tied to the quality expectations set by management. But I've never toured a Euro van. I always worked for automotive OEMs and tier 1 suppliers.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Punkinhead

I've never looked at a Euro van so I have no first hand knowledge. Is "Euro Quality" really a thing or is it something that just keeps getting repeated? I'm not talking about design innovation, I'm talking about quality. Do they really use better materials and have better quality programs in their factories?

Over the decades I've worked in plants all over the world and never considered Euro quality any better than North American or Asian. It was always 100% tied to the quality expectations set by management. But I've never toured a Euro van. I always worked for automotive OEMs and tier 1 suppliers.

I think this "Euro Quality" varies by industry. I believe that RV industry in EU tend to invest more into manufacturing methodology and technologies than US.

But, I needed to get a new small car with better ingress/egress and VW, Mercedes, or Volvo didn’t get into my list of last two contenders of Audi Q5/7 and a winner Honda CRV Touring Hybrid.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Punkinhead

I've never looked at a Euro van so I have no first hand knowledge. Is "Euro Quality" really a thing or is it something that just keeps getting repeated? I'm not talking about design innovation, I'm talking about quality. Do they really use better materials and have better quality programs in their factories?

Oh, it is certainly a thing.
As I reported at the time, we toured Iceland in a rented eurovan, and it was an eye-opening experience. The biggest difference is not better materials (many US upfitters use fine materials--that is easy), it is the fact that they put in the effort to do real engineering, and have key components manufactured, rather than cobbled together. Windows, shades and their hardware are engineered as units--not thrown together using accordion cloth and string. Bathrooms are designed to be compact, functional and attractive. etc etc...

An excellent case study of the contrast is the infamous Airstream Westfalia. It was a euro-import Marco Polo, adapted to the US sprinter, with various US-designed add-ons (A/C, black tank, TV, etc). Anyone who has ever looked carefully at one of these rigs (and we almost bought one) will attest the the Marco Polo parts were night-and-day from the American add-ons, which were ridiculously sloppy.

[avanti]

A key reason for the Euro/US gulf is the impracticality of importing Euro-spec vans into the US market. And, apparently, none of them are willing to bite off the difficult task of building and exporting US-spec vans.

Seems to me that an easy path forward would be for the Euro manufacturers to make "kit" versions of their rigs to be exported to the US and purchased under license for use in domestic uplifting. Most of the vans they use over there have nearly-identical US counterparts, so this should not be terribly difficult. Would seem to be a win for everybody.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Snowy

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Also arguing against the idiot hypothesis, why haven’t European manufacturers brought their manufacturing expertise here? It would seem that there was money to be minted by being able to offer European quality at European prices here. Perhaps I am wrong that the Europeans really are better at improving on the quality/cost tradeoff. Perhaps there is just something about our market or workforce that makes it impossible to bring the European system here. Perhaps it just hasn’t happened yet. For example, although not a B, Wingamm seems to be trying to export Euro quality to the US market, but the price here isn’t cheap. Some say the Wingamm models sell for much less in Europe, and so Wingamm is gouging us. But if Wingamm is successful, and they really are minting money here through gouging, then other Euro OEMs will notice and start exporting too, and the competition will drive down prices for imported RVs. If this happens, the domestic OEMs will be forced to change or die. Perhaps the future is bright.
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Good question, especially for Roadtrek which is owned by French Company and managed by Westfalia's ex-CEO.

There is one US company making high quality trailers at reasonable prices ($65K/75K), only two models, similar to Wingamm. It is Oliver, 2 inner and 2 outer fiberglass shells. Upfront investment is high, molds are expensive. Let’s conceptualize: ½ size Oliver 4 shells with no frame, no wheels, no suspension, could cost $40K, place it on a Promaster cutaway for $40K, so this OliverPromaster small C should be priced at $80K MSRP or $150K RVMSRP. Similar concept with Casita or Scamp could be way less.

[Snowy]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

There is one US company making high quality trailers at reasonable prices ($65K/75K), only two models, similar to Wingamm. It is Oliver, 2 inner and 2 outer fiberglass shells.

Your post made me want to go see what Oliver was doing, even though i am not interested in trailers. The quality does look high but i noticed that they tout their insulation as good because it is "Reflective aluminum foil on each side of a 5mm (13/64 inch) polyethylene bubble center." This is essentially Reflectix, and i don't understand how this could be a good choice of insulation *within* a wall. People use Reflectix all the time in RVs because i guess it is cheap and easy to work with but radiative barriers do nothing unless they are adjacent to a sizeable airgap and the rest is just bubble wrap packaging. I wonder why they aren't using some expandable foam between their inner and outer shells?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Snowy

Your post made me want to go see what Oliver was doing, even though i am not interested in trailers. The quality does look high but i noticed that they tout their insulation as good because it is "Reflective aluminum foil on each side of a 5mm (13/64 inch) polyethylene bubble center." This is essentially Reflectix, and i don't understand how this could be a good choice of insulation *within* a wall. People use Reflectix all the time in RVs because i guess it is cheap and easy to work with but radiative barriers do nothing unless they are adjacent to a sizeable airgap and the rest is just bubble wrap packaging. I wonder why they aren't using some expandable foam between their inner and outer shells?

Good point, unfortunately NA RV industry and heat transfer engineering in one statement is oxymoronic. Most common mistakes are insulation sealed on both sides with water vapor blocking membrane, reflective layer in confined space, and hydrophilic insulation.

A decent airgap on the reflective side will impact by heat transfer by radiation but I doubt it is the Oliver case. In the past I had truck camper and trailer by Bigfoot, both were single fiberglass shell with rigid closed cell foam, worked well.

[mumkin]

We did have a European company with a reputation for high quality start up here in NA. Hymer came and bought Roadtrek. We Roadtrek owners were thrilled and were counting on them to bring back the traditional RT quality that the investment company that took it over back at the previous downturn trashed... quantity NOT quality was the rule under them. Sadly instead of Hymer changing that dynamic, they adopted RT's new "system".

Then Thor decided it wanted to buy Hymer's Europe operation... but not RT. So buyer and seller connived... putting all the massive debt into RT... and declaring bankruptcy. Then the sale went through for the European company and the Hymer family laughed all the way to the bank... after screwing all the employees, owners, and supplies of RT. Sweet...

Thus far Thor hasn't imported any good ideas or quality control from Hymer Europe. They have just copied the models that EGHNA built at Roadtrek. One wonders if the German headquarters have allowed Thor to trash their work yet.

Meanwhile the French Rapido company purchased the leftovers from RT for a song and took over the lease on the new factory that Hymer built. Not sure how much that facility copies the European model. They are not doing factory tours. They have started slowly and have cleaned up a number of the things we owners had been complaining about especially with their over-complicated lithium system - as they learned the good and bad in the current RTs. They dumped all the Sprinter models, but the smallest. BUT they are supposedly working on bringing over their Westfalia model on it. They have just brought over their pivoting bathroom with a front dinette into the Promaster line, which is a European style.

So that is my analysis of what mixing there is of European process into the US that I am aware of...

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by mumkin

We did have a European company with a reputation for high quality start up here in NA. Hymer came and bought Roadtrek. We Roadtrek owners were thrilled and were counting on them to bring back the traditional RT quality that the investment company that took it over back at the previous downturn trashed... quantity NOT quality was the rule under them. Sadly instead of Hymer changing that dynamic, they adopted RT's new "system".

Then Thor decided it wanted to buy Hymer's Europe operation... but not RT. So buyer and seller connived... putting all the massive debt into RT... and declaring bankruptcy. Then the sale went through for the European company and the Hymer family laughed all the way to the bank... after screwing all the employees, owners, and supplies of RT. Sweet...

Thus far Thor hasn't imported any good ideas or quality control from Hymer Europe. They have just copied the models that EGHNA built at Roadtrek. One wonders if the German headquarters have allowed Thor to trash their work yet.

Meanwhile the French Rapido company purchased the leftovers from RT for a song and took over the lease on the new factory that Hymer built. Not sure how much that facility copies the European model. They are not doing factory tours. They have started slowly and have cleaned up a number of the things we owners had been complaining about especially with their over-complicated lithium system - as they learned the good and bad in the current RTs. They dumped all the Sprinter models, but the smallest. BUT they are supposedly working on bringing over their Westfalia model on it. They have just brought over their pivoting bathroom with a front dinette into the Promaster line, which is a European style.

So that is my analysis of what mixing there is of European process into the US that I am aware of...

I was hoping that some Westfalia’s DNA will get imbedded into the recovering Roadtrek company by Rapido/Westfalia management, perhaps I was too optimistic, I hope I was wrong.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I was hoping that some Westfalia’s DNA will get imbedded into the recovering Roadtrek company by Rapido/Westfalia management, perhaps I was too optimistic, I hope I was wrong.

They have definitely cleaned up the disaster left by the EGHNA gang... we have a couple company people welcomed onto our FB page and they have fixed a few of our chronic beefs. lol We have the service manager nearly daily and he quickly helps out answering questions... walking people through technical stuff... locating parts... nudging problem dealers... making how-to videos on the most common questions.

I expect to see a Westfalia factory line up and running in the next year or two - which is their goal. This is a conservative company and they have followed their original game plan... clean up the mess... learn how things work in North America... start with a couple of the products on the Promaster, which were their best sellers, and slowly introduce new options and slight variations.

Unlike Hymer, Rapido has left a good opinion with most owners. Most of the beefs are with dealers, but they have always been the weak spot in the system.

[Davydd]

Grass is always greener on the other side of the pond.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Class Bs are already difficult to manufacture simply because space is limited for designing and that space is in a fixed van that is not boxy and easy to finish off as a Class C or trailer. Manufacturing is extremely limited where assembly line production may not be the easiest to accomplish with the intricacy of building a van. Production in volume is a problem as well. There are over 800 filled campsite spaces where I am at on the south end of South Padre Island. I've been up and down two campground and haven't counted yet a dozen Class Bs.

I would agree with your point if we would be living decades ago, but we are living well into 21 Century. With CAM proliferating manufacturing entities dealing with 3D curves is easy, indeed if manufacturing gets stuck with 2X4s and staple guns managing curves is a nightmare.

Confined space, it wasn’t for building my DIY Voila, in fact it was my 3 car garage. All modules were mostly assembled on benches then inserted.

Originally Posted by Davydd

Grass is always greener on the other side of the pond.

…it depends which side of the pond you are, my reply adds as much to this discussion as your point - nothing.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

…it depends which side of the pond you are, my reply adds as much to this discussion as your point - nothing.

If you want to extol cassette toilets, I guess you have a point.

[jrobe]

Since it is a common theme here that North American Class B companies don't know what they are doing, use lousy materials and then take advantage of us with exorbitantly high prices, it would be a great opportunity for someone to come into the US market with a much better and much cheaper product line. It seems like a great opportunity for someone to fill a need and make a lot of money.

[@Michael]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

With CAM proliferating manufacturing entities dealing with 3D curves is easy, indeed if manufacturing gets stuck with 2X4s and staple guns managing curves is a nightmare.

More like 1X2's.

IIRC there are laser scanner gizmos that can create a 3D model of an interior space, so in theory one could model a van and use CAD/CAM & CNC to manufacture interior parts without laborious hand fitment and cardboard templates.

[Punkinhead]

Originally Posted by @Michael

More like 1X2's.

IIRC there are laser scanner gizmos that can create a 3D model of an interior space, so in theory one could model a van and use CAD/CAM & CNC to manufacture interior parts without laborious hand fitment and cardboard templates.

I know Ford provides 3D CAD models of the interior of the Transit so I'd be surprised if Promaster and Sprinter didn't also.

[booster]

I think the bottom line is that any new to this country manufacturer of class b RVs have come to the conclusion that because of the fickleness of the economy along with the also very compulsive and fickle tastes and trends of the North America market, the costs of building the kind of manufacturing plant that could do any kind of major cost reductions with automation and other capital investments can't be justified. The auto manufactures are often looking at a billion dollars and more to build a modern assembly facility and that comes with using plenty of subcontractors that supply reading to go subassemblies. The market isn't big enough or stable enough to support that kind of investment and all the risks that go with it.


Imagine the different possibilities you would have for things like cabinets and such if you could use sheet metal stampings and automatic placement and spot welding of them. No extra skins could probably be done with a nice and very durable powder coat finish. It could also be aluminum tubing with whatever skinning and auto placement and welded if wanted.



It would be nice but it won't happen.


That said, a lot could be done to improve quality and efficiency in the current methods of building, I am sure. The standard consultant line when they are trying to sell management their services was that they could save 30% of the cost of production not including materials. Obviously, this was BS as they hadn't analyzed the processes at that point, but on average it might be close with some being less and some being more. In RV building, I don't think that the large volume builders would get quite that much in cost reduction, but they probably could reduce defects much more than that. As was mentioned, quality ain't free, but it can also also very easily be an overall cost improvement if done right. Warranty work is very expensive in both dollars and reputation.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by @Michael

More like 1X2's.
IIRC there are laser scanner gizmos that can create a 3D model of an interior space, so in theory one could model a van and use CAD/CAM & CNC to manufacture interior parts without laborious hand fitment and cardboard templates.

For my build practically all aluminum framing from 80/20 was cut at the factory from my CAD drawings. I didn’t have access to laser scanner but to fit overhead cabinets side and inner walls to the curved MB headliner I scan its curvature with my venerable Leica D330 setup manually (angle/distance) with a 3/8” resolution then sent it to CNC.