European RV show video

[Sleeping Dog]

Walk around showing 2023 models in Düsseldorf. Most are B+'s rather than B's, but interesting

https://youtu.be/7GU7xLpJFHI

Some nifty ideas that could come here.

[GeorgeRa]

The breadth of options made me drool.

[Davydd]

I guess I am a little bit vindicated with my bunk beds design. I am just European in spirit. They seem to all climb into bed in their RVs.

I tried to put steps in my design to the upper bunk integrated with the cabinets like they did but it was a no go. The 2005 Airstream Class B Westfalia had steps integrated with the cabinets.

[Sensfan]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I guess I am a little bit vindicated with my bunk beds design. I am just European in spirit. They seem to all climb into bed in their RVs. I tried to put steps in my design to the upper bunk integrated with the cabinets like they did but it was a no go. The 2005 Airstream Class B Westfalia had steps integrated with the cabinets.

Nice. It appears logical to conclude that the Europeans prioritize innovative design ideas. Assuming service to not be a concern, how popular do you believe similar type designs could become in North America?

[Davydd]

The European Union is made up of 27 separate countries with cultures, language, money and disparate governments. It stands to reason their independence can breed seemingly innovations America doesn't have. America is dominated by a few major RV companies who market nationwide and they tend to, like all companies, the bottom line. They seem to be conservatively competitive in providing certain, or so they assume, expectations in Class Bs.

Americans have been influenced lately by the DIY adventure crowd and small outfitters mostly in the west, primarily young people. Winnebago seems to be addressing that mostly with like emulation, but most models are standard tried and true layouts. No company likes to go out on the limb. Airstream for instance had the 2005 James Cook Westfalia model with innovative cabinet steps but it didn't sell. Airstream was kind of new in the Class B market. Climbing up to bed was not for most elder or retired people, maybe for kids.

Innovation in America may now be driven by need to keep cost down and expand markets other than the dominating retired people.

I conceived my bunk bed design in 2018 and took deliver just 1-1/2 years ago from ARV, the only company, I think, to pull it off. I thought they seemed skeptical of my ideas (much more than just the bunk beds) but they delivered. Now 1-1/2 years later they've made three videos on it and are promoting it.

[Sensfan]

Chances are Rapido Canada would have done market research. At first glance I like their compact Class A as shown at the Dusseldorf Show: 22 feet long; 7 feet wide; 7 tons.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

……………….
Innovation in America may now be driven by need to keep cost down and expand markets other than the dominating retired people.……………………..

Agree, long overdue. Limited product offerings and absurdly high prices drove DIY community growth. My unsuccessful search for a short wheel base camper van, simple, 360-degree windows and high road clearance led me to my DIY in 2013.

In 2012 I visited a local, well established van conversion company. I discussed options with the key designer, this discussion led to nowhere mainly due to lack of engineering depth.

Since 1977 we had various RVs, started with 2 German, well made Westfalias and switched to North America made RVs. Lack of engineering, cost cutting on NA made RVs was appalling, for example: 400 lbs. steel bars to balance the trailer unbalanced design, awning and AC screwed to 1/8” fiberglass and rigid foam (wow) without backing, stapled cabinetry, wire nuts, Romex, loose batteries, or hammer crimped battery lugs painted a picture of low product quality, quality product being defined as one meeting or exceeding customers expectations.

In the recently posted video from Winnebago Adventure Wagon (Starts at 55 seconds) they talk about insulation sandwich, one of the layers is reflective, I wish to understand how a reflective surface works, regarding heat transfer, sandwiched in between steel and inner van liner.

Going back to Dave’s words “Innovation in America may now be driven by need to keep cost down and expand markets other than the dominating retired people”, - this will not happen without solid engineering clearly visible in European products. A while back I posted a video of the of Adria company, see involvement of engineering from a concept through design and finely manufacturing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoMXIFBmfvg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi1YzzM-udc

[MsNomer]

They said the reflective layer was Thinsulate.

[jrobe]

From most of the conversations I have at campgrounds, etc., I suspect that only about 10% of the Class B buyers in the US would be willing to pay for most of the innovations in this video. By the time you start with a $50k + van, then add US labor rates, decent quality components and innovative engineering, it is impossible to stay below what the vast majority would call “absurdly high prices.” We probably get exactly what we ask for in this country.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

They said the reflective layer was Thinsulate.

As far as I know I was the second person in US who installed Thinsulate in a van conversion - based on Sprinter forum, and since did not see a shiny Thinsulate. But coming from Winnebago at Winnebago prices it could be that they even gold plated those tiny fibers.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by jrobe

From most of the conversations I have at campgrounds, etc., I suspect that only about 10% of the Class B buyers in the US would be willing to pay for most of the innovations in this video. By the time you start with a $50k + van, then add US labor rates, decent quality components and innovative engineering, it is impossible to stay below what the vast majority would call “absurdly high prices.” We probably get exactly what we ask for in this country.

Some how Europeans can do it, better designs at lower costs. They have similar labor cost, material costs, appliances could be more expensive in Europe. Innovative engineering will drive better product at reduces cost of manufacturing.

A Chevy Malibu stapled by Winnebago, with their engineering or lack of, price would be astronomical.

Just compare a cost of finishing, a plastic molding vs popular in US plywood/fabric/glue and staples. High upfront cost for molds spread across manufacturing volume vs high labor for each unit.

[avanti]

It's not just RVs: Residential architecture (apartments, dorms, some hotels) are way cooler and better thought-out in Europe than anything you see in the US. I think there is just more of a design culture across the pond. Very high end houses in the US invariably use European appliances, 'cause they are cooler-looking.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

It's not just RVs: Residential architecture (apartments, dorms, some hotels) are way cooler and better thought-out in Europe than anything you see in the US. I think there is just more of a design culture across the pond. Very high end houses in the US invariably use European appliances, 'cause they are cooler-looking.

For example, turn/vent/tilt windows. We had expensive Anderson crank windows in the previous house and have European, functionally superior, windows in Europe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2zEiVGnEmc

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

For example, turn/vent/tilt windows. We had expensive Anderson crank windows in the previous house and have European, functionally superior, windows in Europe.

Do your Euro windows open out or in? I always liked the Euro sealing and efficiency plus overall quality, but opening in just wouldn't work for us.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

Do your Euro windows open out or in? I always liked the Euro sealing and efficiency plus overall quality, but opening in just wouldn't work for us.

All EU windows as far as I know open inwards, our US Andersons open outwards and had to be cranked, a constant headache.

[jrobe]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Some how Europeans can do it, better designs at lower costs.

Just for fun I looked up the prices of some of these innovative designs from Europe, especially the ones that might interest me. As an example, the Hymer Yukon S sells for $225,000 US. I think you get what you pay for with no free lunch on either side of the pond.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by jrobe

Just for fun I looked up the prices of some of these innovative designs from Europe, especially the ones that might interest me. As an example, the Hymer Yukon S sells for $225,000 US. I think you get what you pay for with no free lunch on either side of the pond.

I couldn’t find Hymer Yukon S. Living partially in Europe I have good opportunity to compare more than just one model, one data point. Try Hymer Free S for $75K minus 19% VAT. See Adria prices.

There is no free lunch anywhere on this planet. One of the reason prices for Bs are high in US is high level for defense of high prices by customers, interesting, isn’t it.

B-class is very expensive in NA in comparison to EU. Cs and trailers are closer except that don’t add 400lbs dead weight to compensate for lack of engineering. See how trailers are designed in EU to prevent catastrophe without adding 400 lbs. of brainless dead weight (this was in Bigfoot trailer)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeEEC5eVNCk

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

For example, turn/vent/tilt windows. We had expensive Anderson crank windows in the previous house and have European, functionally superior, windows in Europe.

I don't consider that window a superior design. First, the vent of the tilt in top should be at the bottom and open out. Secondly, the side hinge opening should swing out instead of in. That's why the crank out. It is always inside. If that window swung out you would have to reach out to the latch. The seal is better protected on the inside of the window than outside against the elements. Both side and top openings of the European windows are failures in rain. Opening in also impedes interior placement such as a table lamp you might desire in the window. The European window is great for cleaning the outside glass. I'll give you that.

I built my house in 1984 with vinyl clad casement and fixed windows with triple glazing. They lasted me 34 years that I lived in the home and I assume they are still going strong. The hardware handled the extra weight. Triple glazing was innovative then I had custom built and still I haven't seen triple glazing in a home today.

[Davydd]

As to the cost of Class Bs, I'm trying to wrap my head around how they have gotten to a 100% cost increase in about a decade. I wonder where the cost is in that Winnebago Adventure Van.

I know where my cost is and it was a lot. Advanced RV posted a short video of how they made the stage step at the cab to level out the cab floor. They just posted it on their Facebook and Instagram web sites. That was just one example of a totally custom design not working from existing past work.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I don't consider that window a superior design. First, the vent of the tilt in top should be at the bottom and open out. Secondly, the side hinge opening should swing out instead of in. That's why the crank out. It is always inside. If that window swung out you would have to reach out to the latch. The seal is better protected on the inside of the window than outside against the elements. Both side and top openings of the European windows are failures in rain. Opening in also impedes interior placement such as a table lamp you might desire in the window. The European window is great for cleaning the outside glass. I'll give you that.

I built my house in 1984 with vinyl clad casement and fixed windows with triple glazing. They lasted me 34 years that I lived in the home and I assume they are still going strong. The hardware handled the extra weight. Triple glazing was innovative then I had custom built and still I haven't seen triple glazing in a home today.

Do you have direct experience regarding “failures in rain”? We have a few EU windows and a balcony door, very exposed to weather, no leak for the last twenty years. Last year we had them repainted as part of regular maintenance. Our windows and doors have about 12”x2” opening on the bottom part of frames with sliding shutter for additional ventilation.