European Ideas coming to the USA

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Excelwpg

American RVs are stuck in the 70's.
There has been no real innovation for decades.
European designs are far more advanced, make better use of space, and are much more ergonomic.
American RV's are still just boxes inside of boxes filled with boxes. The colours change, but that's about it.

And as far as cassette toilets are concerned, they are much more accessible, flexible and can be installed into virtually any type of RV. Nothing is more useless and cumbersome than the typical small capacity black tank in an American style RV (9-12 gallon). Dumping requires specific facilities whereas a cassette can literally be dumped anywhere.

I would add manufacturing technology is more modern in EU than in US, for example trim is often done with labor intensive plywood covered with thin foam and vinyl vs often use plastic moldings in Europe. Initial cost of plastic molding is high but if leveraged among varies models it is less expensive than labor intensive archaic vinyl over plywood. With CAD based molds the overall fit and finish is higher on EU RVs.

[RobRyan]

As well I think European manufacturers have to have their modified Class B's and especially Class C's crash tested. Overall Motorhome results were not good, early days in making them safer
https://www.aboutcampbtob.eu/adac-pe...me-crash-test/

[Davydd]

I'm hearing I don't make a mess dumping cassettes that reminds me of everyone pick's up their dog's poop.

Just how do you dump grey water at home? Or anywhere else?

Anyway getting back to Europe is better the subject of this topic. I understand now the saying, "The grass is greener across the pond." I guess it is fertilized by dumping waste.

[RobRyan]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I'm hearing I don't make a mess dumping cassettes that reminds me of everyone pick's up their dog's poop.

Just how do you dump grey water at home? Or anywhere else?

Anyway getting back to Europe is better the subject of this topic. I understand now the saying, "The grass is greener across the pond." I guess it is fertilized by dumping waste.

Not a fan of your black tanks. Anyway is the "grass greener on the other side" . In a word yes. European manufacturers so far have purchased US and Canadian operations, Class B and Class B+ I would think more in the future.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I'm hearing I don't make a mess dumping cassettes that reminds me of everyone pick's up their dog's poop…..

?

Originally Posted by Davydd

……Just how do you dump grey water at home? Or anywhere else?.....

I think most folks on this forum know where and how to dump black or grey water, not just you.

Originally Posted by Davydd

…….Anyway getting back to Europe is better the subject of this topic. I understand now the saying, "The grass is greener across the pond." I guess it is fertilized by dumping waste.

“Grass is greener….” is a sign of lacking an argument.

[tlillard23]

another cassette battle!!! YES!!!!!!
but seriously, European designs are better IMO because they are working towards more/better in small packages because the roads are generally narrower. Sooooo I would expect class B to get a big boost there. I just wish some of the tech and vehicles would come to the US, instead of marble countertops on a 38' diesel pusher.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by tlillard23

another cassette battle!!! YES!!!!!!
but seriously, European designs are better IMO because they are working towards more/better in small packages because the roads are generally narrower. Sooooo I would expect class B to get a big boost there. I just wish some of the tech and vehicles would come to the US, instead of marble countertops on a 38' diesel pusher.

Since early 90ties NA switched from Westfalia and Sportsmobile Camper Vans tuned for young families to B-class tuned to elderly folks with deep pockets. Europe retained their focus on all ages and still call them camper vans.

[RobRyan]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Since early 90ties NA switched from Westfalia and Sportsmobile Camper Vans tuned for young families to B-class tuned to elderly folks with deep pockets. Europe retained their focus on all ages and still call them camper vans.

In Europe they churn them out. As you state they are for all ages, not just retirees

[Davydd]

The market is what it is.

The roads are what they are.

The camping practices are different.

The infrastructure of campgrounds are different evidently.

So, some design and equipment ideas don't translate optimally.

I still haven't heard an answer to my question of how you dump grey water when you dump a cassette in a public toilet.

Do you dare to poop and put toilet paper in cassettes? How do you clean cassettes out in a public toilet room?

[tlillard23]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The market is what it is.

The roads are what they are.

The camping practices are different.

The infrastructure of campgrounds are different evidently.

So, some design and equipment ideas don't translate optimally.

I still haven't heard an answer to my question of how you dump grey water when you dump a cassette in a public toilet.

Do you dare to poop and put toilet paper in cassettes? How do you clean cassettes out in a public toilet room?

thanks for the input, maybe you should start your own thread instead of crapping on this one!!!!

[tlillard23]

We'll be visiting some friends in Great Britain this fall, they have a caravan, We can't wait to see it and borrow it for a day or two. I will report back any interesting findings.

[MsNomer]

To me, the biggie is the molded plastic panels. About 75% of European RVs are on exactly the same cargo compartment as the 2023 Promaster, and they have since 2006 to play with it.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

To me, the biggie is the molded plastic panels. About 75% of European RVs are on exactly the same cargo compartment as the 2023 Promaster, and they have since 2006 to play with it.

Building you own camper van gives appreciation of how important are plastic moldings for fit and finish and cost reduction. That is why I started with a fully trimmed passenger van.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The market is what it is.

The market is heavily influenced by manufacturing companies driving the market to their benefit. Why there are no stations wagons in US, because more money can be made on SUVs and marketing folks worked hard to convince buyers that SUVs were better. Why camper vans for young families disappear in NA because manufacturers make more money on folks like you paying $1/2M for a van. With folks willing to spend crazy amount of money there is no incentive for manufacturers to reduce cost. This incentive to reduce cost is a matter of business survival in Europe and other place around the world.

Originally Posted by Davydd

The roads are what they are.

But vans are the same so what is your point. It makes no difference on internal van architecture designs.

Originally Posted by Davydd

…….
The camping practices are different.
The infrastructure of campgrounds are different evidently.
So, some design and equipment ideas don't translate optimally.

Different doesn’t mean NA side is better

Originally Posted by Davydd

I still haven't heard an answer to my question of how you dump grey water when you dump a cassette in a public toilet.
Do you dare to poop and put toilet paper in cassettes? How do you clean cassettes out in a public toilet room?

I dump water on dump site or at home and I know how to dump it. If you don’t know please search this forum. Do I dare? I do. I don’t clean cassette in public toilets, I clean them at home or dump stations.

[RobRyan]

Different doesn’t mean NA side is better

Correct it is what works best for that particular country

[RobRyan]

Originally Posted by tlillard23

We'll be visiting some friends in Great Britain this fall, they have a caravan, We can't wait to see it and borrow it for a day or two. I will report back any interesting findings.

Again we have Caravans but vastly more robust and heavier than European ones. Different needs and uses

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by RobRyan

... European manufacturers so far have purchased US and Canadian operations, Class B and Class B+ I would think more in the future.

Well... true... but Hymer made a dog's breakfast of it, and Rapido rode to the rescue. And then the reverse happened, Hymer sold out to Thor, so now they can tank Hymer's reputation in Europe for quality control as they have done for all the American brands they have swallowed up. (BTW...can't imagine two more different markets than Europe and Australia... talk about different usage.. lol)

Since early 90ties NA switched from Westfalia and Sportsmobile Camper Vans tuned for young families to B-class tuned to elderly folks with deep pockets. Europe retained their focus on all ages and still call them camper vans.

Since Hymer appeared, and got all techy along with pop-tops, the market started trending younger. All of us old fogeys are over here on forums. lol If you go over to the FB crowd, we are very much in the minority of the newer owners of Class B's. (we are the advice class of members on RVing) Covid turned the trickle of increase to a flood of families with kids needing advice on how & where to attach a child seat. Not sure how they are affording the current prices though. They have been snatching up the Roadtrek, Winnebago, & Thor pop-top B's. And then there are the middle-aged and still working who can work through the internet from anywhere. So they are not waiting until retirement to move to that van by the river.

These new younger buyers who haven't been using black tanks for years will be more open to the cassette system.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Well... true... but Hymer made a dog's breakfast of it, and Rapido rode to the rescue. And then the reverse happened, Hymer sold out to Thor, so now they can tank Hymer's reputation in Europe for quality control as they have done for all the American brands they have swallowed up. (BTW...can't imagine two more different markets than Europe and Australia... talk about different usage.. lol)


Since Hymer appeared, and got all techy along with pop-tops, the market started trending younger. All of us old fogeys are over here on forums. lol If you go over to the FB crowd, we are very much in the minority of the newer owners of Class B's. (we are the advice class of members on RVing) Covid turned the trickle of increase to a flood of families with kids needing advice on how & where to attach a child seat. Not sure how they are affording the current prices though. They have been snatching up the Roadtrek, Winnebago, & Thor pop-top B's. And then there are the middle-aged and still working who can work through the internet from anywhere. So they are not waiting until retirement to move to that van by the river.

These new younger buyers who haven't been using black tanks for years will be more open to the cassette system.

Let’s hope that manufacturers will invest in the 21st Century manufacturing technologies to tackle costs. Young families should change the market.

[RobRyan]

mumkin

Could not think of a more different Class B environment than between Europe and Australia

Add North America. Yes my posts about Class B'son FB are very popular. They appear to be a much younger crowd. Have received top contributor status several times
As far as overseas interests wanting to buy local RV companies nothing like that although at least 6 local RV companies have vastly bigger factories than ,as a NA Benchmark, Lance Travel Trailer and Truck Camper RV
We do have Chinese Caravan and Camper Trailers
Jayco Australia is still owned by Gerry Ryan the founder and is a private company. Unlike the Thor owned US Jayco. Interesting fact Thor was started by a New Zealander.eho moved to the US

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Let’s hope that manufacturers will invest in the 21st Century manufacturing technologies to tackle costs. Young families should change the market.

A cassette toilet is not going to make Class Bs more affordable. Most young people consider Class Bs impractical because they live in places where parking them is a problem, can't afford or want a vehicle that isn't an every day vehicle, raising a family is impractical in a Class B mainly because of limited size, most of their vacations are getting some place, not touring, and most all work with limited vacation time to have the luxury of most any RV other than a trailer which is way more inexpensive and versatile for what you get to bed a family. Most all trailers, 5th wheelers, Class Cs and As have black tank toilets not cassettes. A 5 gallon cassette wouldn't have the practical capacity for a family of say four. I think it is a pipe dream to think Americans are going to follow Europe in that regard. They haven't done so in the past. Americans are in love with their pickup trucks. A trailer would be the first choice.

For all one knows, the idea of motorized RV vacations may have hit the high point of practicality with the trending to electric vehicles.