Ethanol in Gasoline

[Xplorer2000]

Hello:
I recently watched this video about the dangers of using E15 (gasoline with 15% ethanol) in cars more than two years old. (http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001)

So I'm curious if anyone is concerned about having to use E10 in their vans, which is 10% ethanol. Do you try to avoid gasoline with ethanol, or perhaps do you use an addative to counteract the ethanol? From what I've been reading, the ethanol reduces performance, and over time can damage your fuel lines and other components. I would like to her if others are concerned about this.

[markopolo]

You can follow this topic on the RT Yahoo Group: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/.../message/81180

[Mike]

I've seen warnings on some vehicle fill pipes that tell you whether it's OK or not to use some types of ethanol laced gaaoline. For example, my 2009 truck has an "E85" symbol with the red circle and the diagonal line through it, meaning don't use, so I wouldn't use that concentration if I could avoid it. Most Canadian and US gasoline can now contain up to 10% ethanol, and often does, as far as I know, so there aren't many options except to use it, if you really need to fill up.
I wouldn't think it would be that harmful, but I'm not an engineer or chemist. Do you know anyone who has had problems? Have you asked the chassis manufacturer what the allowable ethanol content is for your vehicle?

If you want pure gas, here's a website I found that might help. I don't know how reliable this info really is, either online, or at the actual pumps.
http://pure-gas.org/

[Sensfan]

Is it still possible to get ethanol free gas in the USA? It looks like it may well be going extinct here in Canada.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Sensfan

Is it still possible to get ethanol free gas in the USA? It looks like it may well be going extinct here in Canada.

Minnesota where we are tends to be pretty strict on it, but does allow pure gas for small engines, boats, snowmobiles, lawn products, motorcycles, and cars older than 20 years old. I was glad when my 96 buick qualified and use it all the time, but it is premium and quite expensive.


Most of the not really old vehicles are OK with 10% but preserve it if they are going to sit unused for more than a couple of weeks. The generators are the biggest problem children with the ethanol as it plugs the carburetors up very quickly if the sit without use. 15% is not good stuff for anything but very new, so stay away from it.

[Sensfan]

Originally Posted by booster

Minnesota where we are tends to be pretty strict on it, but does allow pure gas for small engines, boats, snowmobiles, lawn products, motorcycles, and cars older than 20 years old. I was glad when my 96 buick qualified and use it all the time, but it is premium and quite expensive.
Most of the not really old vehicles are OK with 10% but preserve it if they are going to sit unused for more than a couple of weeks. The generators are the biggest problem children with the ethanol as it plugs the carburetors up very quickly if the sit without use. 15% is not good stuff for anything but very new, so stay away from it.

Yup. Our 2012 RT Onan 2800 has run flawlessly since we bought it in 2012. It has burned nothing but 91 octane /high quality/non-ethanol gas. Maybe we got lucky; chances are it is because of the gas. I have asked our petroleum company to indicate whether or not they are now mixing ethanol with their 91 premium octane; and if yes, at what percentage.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Sensfan

Yup. Our 2012 RT Onan 2800 has run flawlessly since we bought it in 2012. It has burned nothing but 91 octane /high quality/non-ethanol gas. Maybe we got lucky; chances are it is because of the gas. I have asked our petroleum company to indicate whether or not they are now mixing ethanol with their 91 premium octane; and if yes, at what percentage.

If the carbs are clean, small engines work trouble free for a long time.


We have a 32 year old 8hp Tecumseh Simplicity snow blower and a 22 year old 17hp Kawasaki power John Deere lawn tractor and both carbs have never been touched, even to adjust mixtures. Both have run on ethanol free without exception, most of it 91 octane that is currently sold here and is top tier.

[Doneworking]

Virtually every station around here (Oklahoma, Oklahoma City) has three choices at each pump: 87 octane with up to 10% ethanol, then two higher octanes with no ethanol. Seldom do I see stations that do other wise. Most stations also have at least one or two pumps with diesel.

I have used the 87 with ethanol in our RT for all sixteen years since it was new and it has never been a problem. I do buy higher octane non ethanol for my two and four cycle yard equipment.

By the way, the ethanol 87 is currently $2.48 at Costco and Sams here and other stations a dime or so more.

[Philip53]

I have used non ethanol gas in all of my small engines for many years. I also add fuel preservative every time I get replacement fuel . I do this because some of that gas may end up being over a year old - through a winter. I do not even have to drain the carbs at the end of a season, if I treat the gas in this manner, and they always start and my carbs stay clean.

On my Sprinter, and indeed all of my vehicles, I use the regular approved fuel with ethanol. They all get run regularly, so will always have fresh fuel, with the exception of the Sprinter. When I know I won't be out in the Sprinter for a while, I will put in non ethanol, and add the fuel preservative. This gives me extra peace of mind, and I don't worry about next year, or whenever, I decide to take another trip.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Philip53

I have used non ethanol gas in all of my small engines for many years. I also add fuel preservative every time I get replacement fuel . I do this because some of that gas may end up being over a year old - through a winter. I do not even have to drain the carbs at the end of a season, if I treat the gas in this manner, and they always start and my carbs stay clean.

On my Sprinter, and indeed all of my vehicles, I use the regular approved fuel with ethanol. They all get run regularly, so will always have fresh fuel, with the exception of the Sprinter. When I know I won't be out in the Sprinter for a while, I will put in non ethanol, and add the fuel preservative. This gives me extra peace of mind, and I don't worry about next year, or whenever, I decide to take another trip.

You have a gasoline powered Sprinter class B?

[Sensfan]

Originally Posted by Philip53

... When I know I won't be out in the Sprinter for a while, I will put in non ethanol, and add the fuel preservative. This gives me extra peace of mind, and I don't worry about next year, or whenever, I decide to take another trip.

Re peace of mind ... Our RT sits outside in cold weather from November to April. Up until now, its tank has been full of high quality 91 octane/non-ethanol gas. I have read that, over time, ethanol gas attracts moisture into the tank that condenses and settles to the bottom. Do we have any chemists members on the Forum that may be able to validate or discount this statement?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Sensfan

Re peace of mind ... Our RT sits outside in cold weather from November to April. Up until now, its tank has been full of high quality 91 octane/non-ethanol gas. I have read that, over time, ethanol gas attracts moisture into the tank that condenses and settles to the bottom. Do we have any chemists members on the Forum that may be able to validate or discount this statement?

Not a chemist, but if you search on the internet you will find a ton of videos showing the separation of ethanol and gasoline and the gelling that occurs as it sits. I have found that the pure gas we have here is OK for a year or more, but that is in a warm shop all winter so no temp swing "breathing" of the tank and pulling in of moisture that can happen outside. A non full tank in this part of the country can take in enough moisture of the winter to keep it from running in the spring. I have seen this happen several times over the years when I went help get them running.

[Philip53]

@Booster, yes, I have a '21 gasser. And ethanol gas will absolutely begin to deterioate with time. I failed to mention that I fill up the tanks of all of my small engines, and the Sprinter, in order to eliminate any moisture that could otherwise condense from the air, inside the tank. This can happen anywhere, but here in Louisiana, with our humidity, it is a necessity to eliminate as much free air in the tanks as possible.

[Sensfan]

Originally Posted by booster

Not a chemist, but if you search on the internet you will find a ton of videos showing the separation of ethanol and gasoline and the gelling that occurs as it sits. I have found that the pure gas we have here is OK for a year or more, but that is in a warm shop all winter so no temp swing "breathing" of the tank and pulling in of moisture that can happen outside. A non full tank in this part of the country can take in enough moisture of the winter to keep it from running in the spring. I have seen this happen several times over the years when I went help get them running.

Thanks, And additives do not mitigate separation ... yes/no?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Sensfan

Thanks, And additives do not mitigate separation ... yes/no?

My understanding is that they help prevent the ethanol separation. In moist areas and unfilled tanks that separation is probably much worse as the ethanol will mix with the water that forms in the tank.

[Sensfan]

Originally Posted by booster

My understanding is that they help prevent the ethanol separation. In moist areas and unfilled tanks that separation is probably much worse as the ethanol will mix with the water that forms in the tank.

Thanks again. This will be my first time using an additive; any suggestions from Forum members would be appreciated.

[jjrbus]

Why can't life be simple?? I have read articles about this till my head hurt, I have not seen any ill effects in my fuel injected vehicles from 10% ethanol. The inside of my 94 Toyota fuel tank was very rusty which may have been from alcohol I don't know, lasted almost 30 years so I do not see that as an issue.

Every issue I have had with carburated engines was due to ethanol so do not use it in my small engines. I am in Florida where non ethanol is widely available $$$$$.

I use a Honda 2200 for my RV I use non ethanol in it. When traveling it can be hard to find and I have often been lead on wild goose chases with the online sites for non ethanol. So I use what ever is available as it will not sit in the system for more than a couple days. for the last tank of a trip I run the tank dry and use non ethanol, I may do this when I get home, run that through the system until gone and drain the carb before storing. No issues in the 8 or so years I have been doing this.

Read an interesting article on buying small amounts of non ethanol from pumps that use a common nozzle to dispense gas. The first gas coming out of the nozzle may be contaminated with ethanol. Not a big deal if buying 50 gallons. Is it an issue for 1 gallon, I would think so. Our stations use a separate dispenser for non ethanol. Plus do they deliver non ethanol, ethanol and diesel in the same tank truck? I think they do??

[Philip53]

Originally Posted by Sensfan

Thanks again. This will be my first time using an additive; any suggestions from Forum members would be appreciated.

I have used many different fuel treatments over the years. This one seems to do the best job: https://www.amazon.com/Star-Tron-Enz...1zcF9hdGY&th=1

Edit: Star Tron additive is also available at auto parts stores, powersports dealers and small engine dealers/repair shops.

[Sensfan]

FWIW to our American Forum members, I received feedback from my preferred gasoline provider re ethanol gas:
"Starting in 2022, all gasoline grades sold in Canada will be blended with ethanol, including premium gasoline (V-Power 91, 93) according to proposed regulations (10% ethanol Federal Clean Fuel Regulation for 2022, Low Carbon Fuel Requirements and need to reduce the carbon intensity of fossil fuels, which ethanol is one mechanism to reduce carbon intensity). All the provinces are switching slowly, and If you see the label at the pump, “Gasoline may contain up to 10% Ethanol,” it is already happening."