Embassy RV

[avanti]

Originally Posted by jrobe

I don’t understand the hang up with a black tank. It isn’t hard to have a toilet with at least a modest sized black tank above the floor and just raise the toilet a little. This still allows a spare tire and nothing below the van except the drain pipe. The toilet would be a deal breaker for me.

As I said, the owner is a man with strong opinions. Many of them are excellent, but frankly some of them are just silly. Whether this is the upfitter for you very much depends on whether you value the former and can live with the latter.

[Punkinhead]

Originally Posted by jrobe

I don’t understand the hang up with a black tank. It isn’t hard to have a toilet with at least a modest sized black tank above the floor and just raise the toilet a little. This still allows a spare tire and nothing below the van except the drain pipe. The toilet would be a deal breaker for me.

Different strokes. I've owned motorhomes and travel trailers with black tanks and dumping doesn't bother me. But for me a van is for boondocking and I don't want to deal with finding dump sites. I recognize that there's a convenience to a black tank that you don't get with a composting toilet but lack of a black tank isn't a deal breaker either. But I'd rather have a conveniently located tank underneath with a macerator pump than a raised toilet if I were to go the black tank route.

My personal deal breaker is a cassette. Just the thought of the "glorp, glorp" of dumping a cassette makes my stomach churn. We all have our triggers I suppose.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Punkinhead

I'd rather have a conveniently located tank underneath with a macerator pump than a raised toilet if I were to go the black tank route.

I am curious about this comment. Both our current van and our new one have inside tanks and macerators underneath. The toilet is at the correct height, since many are designed to sit on such a pedestal. A tank under the toilet seems like an excellent use of otherwise wasted space, and takes away one 4-season freeze issue. What is the downside?

P.S. -- agree about the cassette.

[jrobe]

Originally Posted by avanti

I am curious about this comment. Both our current van and our new one have inside tanks and macerators underneath. The toilet is at the correct height, since many are designed to sit on such a pedestal. A tank under the toilet seems like an excellent use of otherwise wasted space, and takes away one 4-season freeze issue. What is the downside?

We also have an inside black tank with a shorter toilet at the exact correct height. This then allows space under the van for other things so we can have a spare tire in the normal spot under the van. No spare tire is a deal breaker for me and the inside black tank makes this much easier. I also then don't need a spare tire on a rear rack which allows us to have 2 big Aluminess storage boxes on the back which are invaluable. Maybe one could have a bigger black tank if it was under the van but it would probably have to be a more expensive custom built one. Our black tank size has never been a limiting factor for us.

[Punkinhead]

Originally Posted by avanti

I am curious about this comment. Both our current van and our new one have inside tanks and macerators underneath. The toilet is at the correct height, since many are designed to sit on such a pedestal. A tank under the toilet seems like an excellent use of otherwise wasted space, and takes away one 4-season freeze issue. What is the downside?

My explanation: I've never had a toilet with a macerator but I just thought about it for a minute and you're right.

[Davydd]

I'm making pizzas today at home and have to prepare on the kitchen counter and then walk through my living room to my outside oven on the patio.That's a pain in the patootie. That's what I meant in that the Galley kitchen to the back of the van is that when you cook outside you don't do everything outside. You still have to get kitchen utensils you store, cooking supplies, and use the refrigerator almost extensively.

Back bathrooms are not unique. Several manufactures have them. I have a custom designed van with the enclosed bathroom toward the back but 17" forward of the back doors so I can utilize the back doors for inside storage for the bulk items like hoses, electrical cords, tools, propane cylinders for outside grill (the small ones), the grill, screen tent, inflatable kayaks and even bicycles. The bathroom has a 31" x 30" floor to stand and shower in with a sink over the rear wheel well to give you an extra width at shoulder height of 38". I have plenty of storage room for bathroom items like tooth brushes, dop kit, medicine, towels, cleaning supplies and what one keeps in a bathroom. I don't have to put them away or share them with the galley storage.

I have a toilet in the bathroom in the space but as I mentioned I have ample space to stand and take a shower. Actually it is convenient to sit on the toilet lid sometimes when showering. Now that toilet. What the Embassy guys overlooked is another option. In order to have a toilet behind the back axle and also have room for a spare tire you do have to have a standalone toilet without a black tank or you can accomplish it with a marine upflow toilet (macerator pump) to pump over the back axle to a tank forward. Forward, and there is plenty of room even in a short 20 ft. Sprinter I have a 25 gal. black tank and a 26 gal. grey tank a huge, for a Class B, 40 gal. fresh water tank. Otherwise, that space gets unused and tanks (fresh and grey) take up storage inside and displace storage.

My beds are permanent and made up. The Achilles heel in the design for most people are they are bunk beds. The upper bunk is you have to climb like in some vans with bike storage under or the old Airstream Westfalia. I did get my inspiration from a young couple on the Alaska Highway that had a CS Riesemobile DUO short van back in 2012 and it has been festering ever since. Beds are also the Achilles heel for all Class Bs especially in short vans. They can take up 60% of the floor space in a short Sprinter either/or day and night time use vs. the bunk beds at 25% permanent. That to me is too much.

This was an ambush video ARV made on the spot at Advanced Fest. Since I sent my ideas ahead in advance, Rob saw us after we taped off the floor plan, had time to think about it and volunteered to mock up the bunk beds. Forgive me for my presentation, I just had an aphasia like Fetterman stroke that year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsD4UvfLVAA

[Punkinhead]

Originally Posted by Davydd

What the Embassy guys overlooked is another option. In order to have a toilet behind the back axle and also have room for a spare tire you do have to have a standalone toilet without a black tank or you can accomplish it with a marine upflow toilet (macerator pump) to pump over the back axle to a tank forward.

I don't think they overlooked it - I think they consciously dismissed it. I watched one video where the VP said they've done macerators in the past and shared how nasty it was when they had to change out a pump under warranty. I think their aversion to black tanks is a poop phobia making them not want to do repair work on used systems. I once had to repair an overhead pipe from the basement lift pump in my house so I can sympathize, but I don't think that's a good reason not to offer them to customers who want them.

[Rocinante]

The bizarre space toilet thing from Lavio is a total deal-breaker for me. I'm not depending on a fancy silver lamé toilet bag twister to keep things moving along in there, and I'm not throwing totally untreated bags of human sewage into anybody's dumpster. Nope, not doing it.

[Rocinante]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I'm making pizzas today at home and have to prepare on the kitchen counter and then walk through my living room to my outside oven on the patio.That's a pain in the patootie. That's what I meant in that the Galley kitchen to the back of the van is that when you cook outside you don't do everything outside. You still have to get kitchen utensils you store, cooking supplies, and use the refrigerator almost extensively.

Back bathrooms are not unique. Several manufactures have them. I have a custom designed van with the enclosed bathroom toward the back but 17" forward of the back doors so I can utilize the back doors for inside storage for the bulk items like hoses, electrical cords, tools, propane cylinders for outside grill (the small ones), the grill, screen tent, inflatable kayaks and even bicycles. The bathroom has a 31" x 30" floor to stand and shower in with a sink over the rear wheel well to give you an extra width at shoulder height of 38". I have plenty of storage room for bathroom items like tooth brushes, dop kit, medicine, towels, cleaning supplies and what one keeps in a bathroom. I don't have to put them away or share them with the galley storage.

I have a toilet in the bathroom in the space but as I mentioned I have ample space to stand and take a shower. Actually it is convenient to sit on the toilet lid sometimes when showering. Now that toilet. What the Embassy guys overlooked is another option. In order to have a toilet behind the back axle and also have room for a spare tire you do have to have a standalone toilet without a black tank or you can accomplish it with a marine upflow toilet (macerator pump) to pump over the back axle to a tank forward. Forward, and there is plenty of room even in a short 20 ft. Sprinter I have a 25 gal. black tank and a 26 gal. grey tank a huge, for a Class B, 40 gal. fresh water tank. Otherwise, that space gets unused and tanks (fresh and grey) take up storage inside and displace storage.

My beds are permanent and made up. The Achilles heel in the design for most people are they are bunk beds. The upper bunk is you have to climb like in some vans with bike storage under or the old Airstream Westfalia. I did get my inspiration from a young couple on the Alaska Highway that had a CS Riesemobile DUO short van back in 2012 and it has been festering ever since. Beds are also the Achilles heel for all Class Bs especially in short vans. They can take up 60% of the floor space in a short Sprinter either/or day and night time use vs. the bunk beds at 25% permanent. That to me is too much.

This was an ambush video ARV made on the spot at Advanced Fest. Since I sent my ideas ahead in advance, Rob saw us after we taped off the floor plan, had time to think about it and volunteered to mock up the bunk beds. Forgive me for my presentation, I just had an aphasia like Fetterman stroke that year.

Cool floor plan, I'm glad it's working out well for you! We just achieved a similar huge forward lounge in our 2016 Airstream Interstate by removing the second row of front seats, which we never used anyway. So, ironically, we've turned the forward lounge in our AI Grand Lounge model into an actual grand lounge. We haven't yet taken it out camping in this configuration, but it already looks like a winner. We finally have room for the dog's bed, a mid-sized foot-pedal activated trash can (bolted to the floor), and maybe even a dance hall. One remaining decision is whether to reinstall the rear TV and remove the forward TV, since we can't see the forward TV from the front seats. We think we can pivot the smaller rear TV so it can be seen from the front, and of course it can also be seen from the bed, should we wish to do so. Naturally, we constantly whack our heads on the forward TV on the way into the cab, so removal of that unit would likely be a net positive. We pulled out the rear TV some time ago because I tired of banging my shoulder on it as I passed by, but the larger lounge up front may significantly reduce traffic into the rear area except to get in / out of bed. We shall see!

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Punkinhead

- They're not without problems. Owners are reporting big problems with the Premier split AC

Is this different from the ProAir split unit that they were installing? What is the nature of the problems?

[Punkinhead]

Originally Posted by avanti

Is this different from the ProAir split unit that they were installing?

I wasn't aware they had been using ProAir. They're now using Premier which is also located in Elkhart.

What is the nature of the problems?

Keep in mind that the only information is coming from Facebook which is the worst discussion format ever conceived. A typical problem statement is, "It don't work" followed by questions like, "where'd you get those lovely throw pillows?" and "do you have a recipe for microwave pizza?". Then the conversation drops out of peoples' feeds due to Facebook's indecipherable algorithm. One lady actually did a good job of collecting data for outside temp, inside temp, and duct temp over many hours. The duct temps were low and had a good spread from OT and IT which to me indicates a flow restriction (although I'm no HVAC expert). Others have posted that they've had compressors freezing which also could be a sign of improper ducting or something blocking flow. Still others have said the compressor will randomly shut off and they'll wake up to hot air blowing. Again, that could be due to a frozen compressor but it's hard to say without more troubleshooting info. There may be other problems but the level of discussion and troubleshooting skills is so poor on Facebook that it's really hard to tell.

I'm not completely sure who owns the problem. Some users have stated that Premier actually does the installation, in which case they should have spotted a ducting problem if that's the root cause. Some have said that Premier has increased the refrigerant charge beyond what their manual calls for and apparently Embassy has increased the duct and vent sizes. But the changes happened in the Fall and nobody has reported that they've had the changes made then used the AC successfully so it's not clear the problem is solved. Right now owners with pets are afraid to leave them unattended since the AC will randomly shut off or blow hot air. Hopefully Embassy and Premier will find a solution because HVAC is a pretty well understood field.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Punkinhead

I wasn't aware they had been using ProAir. They're now using Premier which is also located in Elkhart.

Hmmm.
I could be wrong, but the stuff I saw sure looked like ProAir products.

Is this the "Premier" they use?

https://www.premierproducts.net/orde...nsit-kits.html

They are pretty clearly an integrator, not an OEM, so it is quite possible that some or all of what they sell is actually ProAir stuff.

I am using a ProAir split system in my new rig. It is reputed to be pretty rock-solid, so hopefully either I was wrong about Embassy using ProAir or else the issues are application-specific.

[Punkinhead]

Originally Posted by avanti

Is this the "Premier" they use?

https://www.premierproducts.net/orde...nsit-kits.html

That website shows the evaporator mounted on the ceiling but Embassy mounts it under the couch. I've never seen pictures of the Embassy installation so I don't know if they use one of Premier's pre-made kits or if it's something custom.

[Punkinhead]

Originally Posted by avanti

Hmmm.
I could be wrong, but the stuff I saw sure looked like ProAir products.

Is this the "Premier" they use?

https://www.premierproducts.net/orde...nsit-kits.html

They are pretty clearly an integrator, not an OEM, so it is quite possible that some or all of what they sell is actually ProAir stuff.

I am using a ProAir split system in my new rig. It is reputed to be pretty rock-solid, so hopefully either I was wrong about Embassy using ProAir or else the issues are application-specific.

I did some digging and there's a company called UndermountAC that claims to be the supplier for Embassy RV. See this link: https://undermountac.com/products/co...net-evaporator

If you zoom in you can see that the compressor is a Proair. So it looks like you're right that they're in integrator rather than an OEM. Embassy RV owners say they've been working with Premier to resolve their AC issues so my first thought was that Premier and UndermountAC are the same company, but UndermountAC's contact info has a Canadian phone number so I'm not sure what's going on. In any case, the problem may not be due to the Proair components but rather Premier or UndermountAC not doing a proper system design or installation.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Punkinhead

In any case, the problem may not be due to the Proair components but rather Premier or UndermountAC not doing a proper system design or installation.

I'm confused. Didn't Embassy design and install the split AC system specifically for their vans?

[Punkinhead]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I'm confused. Didn't Embassy design and install the split AC system specifically for their vans?

I'm not sure what the relationship with the AC supplier is and who designed what parts of it. I assume Premier chose the components and put together the system and Embassy designed and installed the ducting. Clearly Embassy is responsible for the end product so the buck stops there, but owners are reporting that a company called Premier does the installation and when they have problems they're directed to work with Premier. It's not a good situation for an owner.

It very well could be that the problems are fixed in new vans. According to Facebook posts, Embassy has changed their ducting and Premier has changed their refrigerant charging. What I haven't seen is an owner saying they had a non-working AC, took it back to Embassy to be updated, and now the AC works fine. And now that it's cold enough in most parts of the country that AC isn't necessary the owners may not know if it's been fixed until next summer.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Punkinhead

I don't think they overlooked it - I think they consciously dismissed it. I watched one video where the VP said they've done macerators in the past and shared how nasty it was when they had to change out a pump under warranty. I think their aversion to black tanks is a poop phobia making them not want to do repair work on used systems. I once had to repair an overhead pipe from the basement lift pump in my house so I can sympathize, but I don't think that's a good reason not to offer them to customers who want them.

The Tecma marine toilet has its own macerating and water control system and when the contents reach the black tank they are already macerated and then there is the conventional macerator with the conventional black and grey pull handles for dumping. I'm able to combine my black and grey tanks for 51 gallons but have not found a need to. It is pretty much balanced out between fresh, black and grey so I dump and take on fresh water at the same time so have no more than 40 gallons fresh and waste at the same time. The system is all enclosed and no odors like the direct dump Dometic toilets. The dump hose is permanently connected to the dump macerator and the hose outlet has has a turn valve to close off that end and three adaptors to seal off completely if I choose but haven't found the need to. The black tank waste after going through two macerators appears to be just a brown liquid. Dumping 26 gallons of grey soapy water on the second pull essential cleans out the dumping hose. There is no aversion to black tank and poop phobia. You don't see it and little or no maintenance like flushing black tank contents with a spray hose or even chemicals. There is no handling of proprietary poop bags to store and dispose of frequently or direct handling and contact with poop in cassette and composting toilets. It all goes where it is suppose to go--a sanitary sewer.

I like the system more than I thought I would. It flushes similar to a home toilet and you can put the toilet anywhere in the van and not depend on the black tank location. You can do that with a Laveo and composting toilet but not a cassette toilet.

[avanti]

I was really tempted to go with a macerating toilet (even though my configuration does not require one), but @davydd's previous warning that it consumes significantly more water waved me off. I will have decent tank capacity (for a Transit, at least), but even so, the more water that can be conserved, the better.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Punkinhead

I did some digging and there's a company called UndermountAC that claims to be the supplier for Embassy RV. See this link: https://undermountac.com/products/co...net-evaporator

If you zoom in you can see that the compressor is a Proair. So it looks like you're right that they're in integrator rather than an OEM. Embassy RV owners say they've been working with Premier to resolve their AC issues so my first thought was that Premier and UndermountAC are the same company, but UndermountAC's contact info has a Canadian phone number so I'm not sure what's going on. In any case, the problem may not be due to the Proair components but rather Premier or UndermountAC not doing a proper system design or installation.

Premier is definitely NOT the same company as UndermountAC.

The ProAir split system that is being installed in our new van came from Undermount (at my request). They are definitely Canadian.

Undermount appears to be a one-man operation. The owner participates on the Sprinter and Transit forums and appears to be very knowledgeable, and generous with technical information. Their business model is to put together a small number of standard configurations using ProAir products, program them for optimum performance in a van environment, and solve the mounting/configuration issues for good undermount operation. They are a stocking distributor, which is a big deal these days. My upfitter was able to get near instant delivery of exactly the 24V system that we wanted, whereas buying directly from ProAir would have taken many, many months. I think they are sort of trying to do for ProAir what Rixen's does for Espar. So far, they seem to be doing an excellent job.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

One remaining decision is whether to reinstall the rear TV and remove the forward TV, since we can't see the forward TV from the front seats. We think we can pivot the smaller rear TV so it can be seen from the front, and of course it can also be seen from the bed, should we wish to do so. Naturally, we constantly whack our heads on the forward TV on the way into the cab, so removal of that unit would likely be a net positive. We pulled out the rear TV some time ago because I tired of banging my shoulder on it as I passed by, but the larger lounge up front may significantly reduce traffic into the rear area except to get in / out of bed. We shall see!

We don't have a TV installed. We didn't have the obvious traditional plan location to view it from back beds or sofa. We seldom watched TV anyway without cable hookup in a private campground which was a rare event. We do have a dome directional antenna on the roof to pick up over the air TV and also a cable hookup, but we watch TV on our iPads and even our iPhones wirelessly over the air, cable, and streaming from anywhere in the van with an app to connect wirelessly. With streaming Youtube, Hulu, Netflix, AppleTV, etc. there is more than we can watch and you can pick it up with WiFi and cellular. I think traditional TV sources are diminished. I'm thinking of putting a mount for the iPads in both beds to watch handless but haven't made it a priority. I already have the solution with iPhones. We haven't used over the air or cable yet other than curiosity and testing--just streaming with WiFi and cellular. You can't get some NFL games other than streaming. We already watch those 6-10 episode and season series streaming. That may be the future.