ecotrek batteries using 6 internal amps

[gregmchugh]

Roadtrek didn't have much option but to tell the whole story since the owners need to take significant actions to deal with the consequences of the internal power drain...

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Roadtrek didn't have much option but to tell the whole story since the owners need to take significant actions to deal with the consequences of the internal power drain...

You are probably right on that, once the cat was out of the bag. Is it all of the lithiums that have been made, or more recent?

This seems like it would be one of those times when Jim H should speak up to the customers, explain the issues, and layout a course of corrective action. I doubt that will happen, though, as he is busy teaching his sales corps how to sell and respect people.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

The 4 amp battery heaters in each module appear to be automatically controlled maybe by a simple thermostat of some sort rather than through the battery management controller since they seem to work when the module is shutdown. They get power from the charge terminal on the module before the relay so they can be powered from the engine generator by running the engine but cannot be powered from shore power, likely because the inverter/charger is connected to the load terminal not the charge terminal on the module.

I'm not understanding this. Are you really saying plugging into shore power will not heat the batteries? How does one store in the winter time? Certainly you are not going to have to run your engine to heat your lithium ion batteries are you?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I'm not understanding this. Are you really saying plugging into shore power will not heat the batteries? How does one store in the winter time? Certainly you are not going to have to run your engine to heat your lithium ion batteries are you?

I think Greg is just referring to the cold shutoff recover with the engine generator, the relays would be closed so the charger would be able feed the heaters if on shore power and not cold shut down.

I would think you sure could use up a lot of electicity over the winter, though, between the module drain and the heaters.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by booster

I think Greg is just referring to the cold shutoff recover with the engine generator, the relays would be closed so the charger would be able feed the heaters if on shore power and not cold shut down.

I would think you sure could use up a lot of electicity over the winter, though, between the module drain and the heaters.

Yes, the only time you would be restricted to using only the engine generator for battery heating would be if you had the cold soak everything shutdown temp below freezing scenario.

In storage you can keep everything warm with the batteries online and plugged into shore power, looks like each Ecotrek module would need about 10 amps 12v DC in that storage mode for the internal draw plus the heaters when they are active, or about 1 amp shore power fir each module. As Davydd has pointed out, with the batteries online there is self heating in the cells so the battery heater pads may not cycle on very much.

Here is a 500 amp battery contactor that uses very low power, appears to be used a lot in electric vehicle DIY builds. I happen to have two of them that I bought on eBay for a home built motor glider project I was building awhile ago. As I recall they were $70 a piece. Quality stuff made by Tyco.

https://www.batteryspace.com/product...Relayev200.pdf

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by booster

You are probably right on that, once the cat was out of the bag. Is it all of the lithiums that have been made, or more recent?

This seems like it would be one of those times when Jim H should speak up to the customers, explain the issues, and layout a course of corrective action. I doubt that will happen, though, as he is busy teaching his sales corps how to sell and respect people.

Not enough info yet to know if the 6 amp draw is present in all Ecotreks or not...

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Yes, the only time you would be restricted to using only the engine generator for battery heating would be if you had the cold soak everything shutdown temp below freezing scenario.

In storage you can keep everything warm with the batteries online and plugged into shore power, looks like each Ecotrek module would need about 10 amps 12v DC in that storage mode for the internal draw plus the heaters when they are active, or about 1 amp shore power fir each module. As Davydd has pointed out, with the batteries online there is self heating in the cells so the battery heater pads may not cycle on very much.

Here is a 500 amp battery contactor that uses very low power, appears to be used a lot in electric vehicle DIY builds. I happen to have two of them that I bought on eBay for a home built motor glider project I was building awhile ago. As I recall they were $70 a piece. Quality stuff made by Tyco.

https://www.batteryspace.com/product...Relayev200.pdf

That looks a lot like the relays you see on the semi-custom lithium packs from numerous places. You had posted a link a while ago, where they used two similar relays. Typical currents for the reduced hold amp models at 3.8 amps pull in and .125 amp hold. As Avanti said, it isn't hard to find the reduced hold or bistable to get very low or even zero loss from the relays, but they don't come really cheaply either, if you want ones that will last.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by avanti

I am not questioning your data, but 3.5 amps from any reasonably sized relay is out of line. I no longer have a separation relay, but as I said, my propane solenoid (which is similar) measures out at .7. According to this:

http://www.allbatterysalesandservice...SHEET_1315.pdf

a randomly-chosen Shurepower separator is spec's at .75 (sheet 4). At that current, they would need a lot of relays to get to the cited current.

I am guessing that your unit was somehow defective.

The Surepower 100 amp separator you cite indicates .75A for coil drive. I believe that R/T uses the Surepower 200 amp separator which has a coil drive of 1.5A. I have one here brand new in the box which has a coil resistance of 7.6 ohms which if driven by 12.6V would pull 1.61A. However, the separator "brain" is a parallel load that probably increases the operating load to the whereabouts of 2A. The temperature of the coil bracket is around 140 degrees and these separators should be fastened to sufficient metal to act as a heat sink to preclude premature failure. The Blue Sea ACR bi-stable separator is a better choice for this application.

[gregmchugh]

An interesting scenario that I have not figured out is if RT allows the batteries to discharge when they are below freezing but my guess has been that they could but they need to insure that the shore power is not connected allowing the inverter/charger to charge the batteries which means they would need to open the relay on the load terminal if they see charge level voltage on the terminal. I don't recall a clear statement from them on whether they allow the batteries to stay connected below freezing.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

An interesting scenario that I have not figured out is if RT allows the batteries to discharge when they are below freezing but my guess has been that they could but they need to insure that the shore power is not connected allowing the inverter/charger to charge the batteries which means they would need to open the relay on the load terminal if they see charge level voltage on the terminal. I don't recall a clear statement from them on whether they allow the batteries to stay connected below freezing.

We had all wondered how many "warts" would show up once the lithiums got into more mainstream use, as they were so secretive of how it worked nobody could predict. It does seem there are some issues, if all we are hearing is correct, with the parasitic being a huge one. Maybe Roadtrek will be more forthcoming as they address the stuff, so folks have a better idea of what to expect and can more easily give feedback on use patterns that the designers may not have addressed originally.

[gregmchugh]

Diane just got instructions from RT on how to restart an Ecotrek when it appears unresponsive. The instructions had not been seen before so they seem to be slowly giving out info but only it seems when forced to in order help customers get things working. Seems to me it would have been more transparent to produce a detailed instruction manual for owners. Someone implemented all this stuff in the battery controller but maybe it was never documented, seems pretty crazy to me...

[gregmchugh]

You don't suppose they started with a detailed set of user scenarios and functional requirements do you?

Just kidding...

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

You don't suppose they started with a detailed set of user scenarios and functional requirements do you?

Just kidding...

I am sure they did have the scenario list, but kind of short. Brag, get it out the door, collect money, stonewall, don't admit there is anything less than perfect. Great scenario.

[gregmchugh]

I am generally concerned that they actually learn anything from their failures and take corrective actions. I think the term hubris applies here rather than humility which is maybe required on occasion...

They have always claimed this stuff was all proven out with the prototype vans but maybe not so much...

[mumkin]

The more I read about the issues on the Facebook page, the happier I am that I dumped the Lithiums and went back to the AGMs last September. Still way too many people with problems and still little or no transparency from Roadtrek.

Same with the Voltstart. It was on my original order, but not "ready" yet when it was delivered. But having it on the order meant that I could retrofit it. But I have read nothing from the users on Facebook that tempt me to get it. Still way too glitchy for my taste.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by mumkin

The more I read about the issues on the Facebook page, the happier I am that I dumped the Lithiums and went back to the AGMs last September. Still way too many people with problems and still little or no transparency from Roadtrek.

Same with the Voltstart. It was on my original order, but not "ready" yet when it was delivered. But having it on the order meant that I could retrofit it. But I have read nothing from the users on Facebook that tempt me to get it. Still way too glitchy for my taste.

No question that you made the right choice...

Every time it appears that things are resolved something else pops up to show things are not really that good...

[booster]

Yep, Mumkin chose very well, under very uncertain circumstances. She is way better off, for sure. You would think Hymer would have put a stop to some of this by now. We know they can't do anything about past mistakes, but they certainly could have Roadtrek own up to the issues and let people know how they are going to take care of them.

[gerrym51]

To whom it may concern. I have had several private messages questioning what i posted.

Norm Schecter said it was an e-mail to him from Roadtrek engineering.

Norm said he copied it and posted it exactly as is.

Several people with ecotrek 800 and above have posted about voltstart coming on at about 4am even though they were only running fridge .

It was not until Norm's post that we learned about the batteries themselves.

Norm and a few others on facebook owners page are the one's to ask. I DO NOT have ecotrek myself.

Posting questions about this on Mike wendlands roadtrekking page will probably get you banned.

[Davydd]

The Roadtrek Owner's group on Facebook is a closed group so one cannot read the message unless a member. I'm not a member so only know what is posted here. I assume it is a "whine zone" group as opposed to Mike Wendland's public Roadtreking: The Group "no whine zone"?

I have to assume Voltstart comes on at a preset drop in SOC. Why would someone with an 800ah li-ion battery bank be surprised by a 4:00 AM wakeup call? Don't they have a way to know and monitor their usage to anticipate that and plan to prevent accordingly?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The Roadtrek Owner's group on Facebook is a closed group so one cannot read the message unless a member. I'm not a member so only know what is posted here. I assume it is a "whine zone" group as opposed to Mike Wendland's public Roadtreking: The Group "no whine zone"?

I have to assume Voltstart comes on at a preset drop in SOC. Why would someone with an 800ah li-ion battery bank be surprised by a 4:00 AM wakeup call? Don't they have a way to know and monitor their usage to anticipate that and plan to prevent accordingly?

I don't think the Roadtreks have battery monitors on them, and if the really are losing 570ah per day, it could come on even if they started the previous day full and the Voltstart was at 50%.

Greg would know more about that part.