ecotrek batteries using 6 internal amps

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

The answer doesn't seem easily arrived at.

DC Power claims only a 10% reduction for running hot which is pretty good.

However, if their figures are correct, the real world AH capacity available depends on whether or not it is run at speed or idle. Compared with their 270 amp unit, the 370 delivers a lot more suds, (330A v. 250A both hot) at road speed but at idle speeds, the output advantage almost disappears (190A v. 180A) which constitutes a 50% idle hot derate for the 370A unit whereas the 270A unit derates about 33%.

Nations has an interesting comparison between their models where some frames have a higher power output than others but then notes that the higher power frame has a hot derating of 30% compared to the lower power model that only has a 15% derating, essentially eliminating the benefit of the higher power unit under hot conditions.

What is the derate % for the Delco 330 idling hot?

I think, like in many businesses, DC Power is overstating the actual hot output of their alternators. Avanti's numbers show a drop to nearly50% in the hot output reduction mode, and net of under 70% of rated on average while heat cycling. It never gets to the rated 270 amps even at starup. I think we need to take all that into consideration when we start predicting how fast recharges will happen, along with the acceptance rate of the batteries at varying SOC.

I can't speak for the hot output of the Delco, as I have never seen numbers on it, but I was told an interesting thing about them in regard to heat. The source said that the Delco has no internal cooling fan, just an external over the case, so the cooling is not all that great. They have large heat capacity due to their mass, but that also makes them cool more slowly once hot. I could see how this could work well in davydd's case, as he will be fully charged pretty quickly before things get very hot. It might be different if the AC was on so the high load lasted longer, but again, no data to know for sure.

I haven't looked at the Nation's chart, but I do know that the DC Power, Denso style units they sell do much better hot than the factory case, rewound units.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Avanti's numbers show a drop to nearly50% in the hot output reduction mode, and net of under 70% of rated on average while heat cycling. It never gets to the rated 270 amps even at starup.

Be a little careful reading too much into my reported data. I am pretty sure that I didn't start collecting data at startup (i.e., there may have been a bit of charging that was unrecorded). I HAVE seen 270 amps (or close). It is just that it doesn't last long. It is not clear to me whether the bottleneck is the alternator or the battery. Sometime I should experiment with the A/C and microwave running during a bulk charge. Also, it is kind of hard to get an accurate reading of the average current early on by eyeballing the chart.

Here are the data in .csv format if you want to play with them:

minutes,time,SOC,amps
0,9:08,38,215
1,9:09,39,207
3,9:11,40,139
5,9:13,*41,205
6,9:14,42,202
7,9:15,43,111
9,9:17,44,201
11,9:19,45,197
13,4:21,46,142
14,9:22,47,201
16,9:24,48,110
18,9:26,49,202
19,9:27,50,114
21,9:29,51,201
22,9:30,52,196
24,9:32,53,122
26,9:34,54,202
28,9:36,55,192
30,9:38,56,203
31,9:39,57,112
33,9:41,58,205
34,9:42,59,203
36,9:44,60,195
37,9:45,61,142
39,9:47,62,205
41,9:49,63,202
43,9:51,64,203
44,9:52,65,145
45,9:53,66,154
47,9:55,67,201
49,9:57,68,165
51,9:59,69,182
52,10:00,70,181
53,10:01,71,147
55,10:03,72,163
57,73,10:05,158
59,74,10:07,151
61,75,10:09,122
64,76,10:12,118
65,77,10:14,112
67,78,10:16,107
69,79,10:18,101
72,80,10:21,94
75,81,10:24,91
79,82,10:28,85
83,83,10:32,78
86,84,10:35,74
90,85,10:39,65
93,86,10:42,64
97,87,10:46,59
103,88,10:52,52
110,89,10:59,45
118,90,11:07,38
122,91,11:11,35
132,92,11:21,28
138,93,11:27,25
152,94,11:41,19
170,95,12:06,15
200,96,12:36,7
311,97,2:27,.8

[booster]

Interesting information. I was trying to extrapolate the curve as the amps tapered once it quit cycling, too. It looked like the batteries would take over 300 amps, if the curve continued the way it appeared. I have found our 250 amp unit will flash at a bit over 210 (with probably 20+ more going to run the van, but also quickly drop to about 170-180 plus the 20 amps. We haven't had a good chance to be down far enough, in the heat, to see how much it cycles. Loading with the AC or microwave works pretty well, but only if you have an ammeter in the engine to battery cable, as a monitor won't see anything that is used by coach electronics like the AC or micro. We have an ammeter there now that reads amps to the coach and amps to the battery, so we can see both at the same time, and it does get kind of interesting depending on what is running.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

I think, like in many businesses, DC Power is overstating the actual hot output of their alternators. Avanti's numbers show a drop to nearly50% in the hot output reduction mode, and net of under 70% of rated on average while heat cycling. It never gets to the rated 270 amps even at starup. I think we need to take all that into consideration when we start predicting how fast recharges will happen, along with the acceptance rate of the batteries at varying SOC.

I can't speak for the hot output of the Delco, as I have never seen numbers on it, but I was told an interesting thing about them in regard to heat. The source said that the Delco has no internal cooling fan, just an external over the case, so the cooling is not all that great. They have large heat capacity due to their mass, but that also makes them cool more slowly once hot. I could see how this could work well in davydd's case, as he will be fully charged pretty quickly before things get very hot. It might be different if the AC was on so the high load lasted longer, but again, no data to know for sure.

I haven't looked at the Nation's chart, but I do know that the DC Power, Denso style units they sell do much better hot than the factory case, rewound units.

IMO, among the best of the breed are the Balmar units. Perusing their site reveals something of interest which is that they have hot ratings like all alternators, but the percentage of derate is not uniform over its entire RPM range. Their tabulation for hot derating their series 98 320 amp alternator is this:

RPM750 Derate 17% Cold 36 Hot 30
RPM1000 Derate 7% Cold 150 Hot 140
RPM1250 Derate 19% Cold 235 Hot 190
RPM1500 Derate 18% Cold 262 Hot 215
RPM1750 Derate 18% Cold 278 Hot 228
RPM2000 Derate 15% Cold 290 Hot 245
RPM2250 Derate 15% Cold 295 Hot 250
RPM2500 Derate 20% Cold 315 Hot 250
RPM2750 Derate 22% Cold 322 Hot 251
RPM3000 Derate 21% Cold 320 Hot 252

What accounts for the efficiency sweet spot at 1000 eludes me.

Question: is there an industry standard for what constitutes a cold or hot state? Balmar identifies a cold state as 26C/78.8F and a hot state as 90C/194F.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

IMO, among the best of the breed are the Balmar units. Perusing their site reveals something of interest which is that they have hot ratings like all alternators, but the percentage of derate is not uniform over its entire RPM range. Their tabulation for hot derating their series 98 320 amp alternator is this:

RPM750 Derate 17% Cold 36 Hot 30
RPM1000 Derate 7% Cold 150 Hot 140
RPM1250 Derate 19% Cold 235 Hot 190
RPM1500 Derate 18% Cold 262 Hot 215
RPM1750 Derate 18% Cold 278 Hot 228
RPM2000 Derate 15% Cold 290 Hot 245
RPM2250 Derate 15% Cold 295 Hot 250
RPM2500 Derate 20% Cold 315 Hot 250
RPM2750 Derate 22% Cold 322 Hot 251
RPM3000 Derate 21% Cold 320 Hot 252

What accounts for the efficiency sweet spot at 1000 eludes me.

Question: is there an industry standard for what constitutes a cold or hot state? Balmar identifies a cold state as 26C/78.8F and a hot state as 90C/194F.

DC Power uses 200 degrees F, so the 90*C may be the common standard for hot, but I have never seen a general guideline on it.

I thought the sweet spot would be where the fan efficiency peak would be, but that seems to be at 2000/2250 rpm. The 1000 rpm thing is odd.

All of this brings up a very interesting question to me, which could just be a bit skepticism of marketing information

The specs say that the output is XXX at 200*F. What they do not say is that XXX is the output you will ever see at 200* continuously, as it probably would overheat more.

Say the alternator is running hard and heating up. It gets to 200* and is putting out XXX (rated) and then they turn it down to keep if from getting hotter. They might even turn it down before it gets to the 200*.

Avanti and I have both seen a lot more reduction than the specs say it appears, so this may explain it.

What they need to tell us is what the output is in the turned down hot state.

[Matsuie62]

I am an Ecotrek owner having multiple battery & volt start issues from day one. My mechanic was told by a Roadtrek tech on July,19,2016 that the batteries do indeed pull 6 amps/hr just to operate.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Matsuie62

I am an Ecotrek owner having multiple battery & volt start issues from day one. My mechanic was told by a Roadtrek tech on July,19,2016 that the batteries do indeed pull 6 amps/hr just to operate.

model and how many ecotreks for more info please-thanks

[Matsuie62]

CS Adventurous 2016 with 4 LI Batts

[booster]

Originally Posted by Matsuie62

CS Adventurous 2016 with 4 LI Batts

Great information, thanks for posting it. Generally confirms the earlier Roadtrek statements, but contradicts a later 3 amp statement. Do you find that an unattended, unloaded, on, module goes dead in about 1.5 days?

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

Great information, thanks for posting it. Generally confirms the earlier Roadtrek statements, but contradicts a later 3 amp statement. Do you find that an unattended, unloaded, on, module goes dead in about 1.5 days?

Roadtrek sent out a power usige supplement to roadtrek owners 2 days ago.

It actually says the ecotreks use 60 watts per hour.

However i cannot seem to get it to link.

Ask Greg Mchugh-he seems to be able to.

they tell you how to use multiple batteries by turning unused one' s off.
It's an incredible document and you won't believe it

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Matsuie62

CS Adventurous 2016 with 4 LI Batts

Did you get the owners manual power-budget supplement roadtrek sent to all current ecotrek owners by e-mail.

post it here i can't get at it to post.

i was shocked with the actual in print 60 watts per hour statement actually put in writing

they are going to use this as a 'fine print' disclaimer for sure

[gerrym51]

No more ecotrek 200-must get at least eco400

each ecotrek module uses 5 amps per hour just to be on.

the new usable ecotrek battery usable standard is 80 percent-no more 90 percent.

the sky has fallen.

[BBQ]

.

Here it is

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

Here it is

be aware i cannot get it to open completly in chrome

I can with IE though

[booster]

Wow, one would be have to be surprised they put that in writing. 5 amps, 80% usable gives 32 hours to totally dead WITHOUT ANY POWER DRAW.

Of course they do the standard AGM claim that they can only go to 50%, when it certainly appears they can go to the same 80% as the lithium, and with a 1% PER MONTH, or 2ah on a 200ah battery, internal loss.

The competition, if they know anything at all, are going to have a field day with that document.

It opened fine in Pale Moon (Firefox fork)

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

Wow, one would be have to be surprised they put that in writing. 5 amps, 80% usable gives 32 hours to totally dead WITHOUT ANY POWER DRAW.

Of course they do the standard AGM claim that they can only go to 50%, when it certainly appears they can go to the same 80% as the lithium, and with a 1% PER MONTH, or 2ah on a 200ah battery, internal loss.

The competition, if they know anything at all, are going to have a field day with that document.

It opened fine in Pale Moon (Firefox fork)

i've heard of firefox-i have no idea what pale moon is

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

Wow, one would be have to be surprised they put that in writing. 5 amps, 80% usable gives 32 hours to totally dead WITHOUT ANY POWER DRAW.

Of course they do the standard AGM claim that they can only go to 50%, when it certainly appears they can go to the same 80% as the lithium, and with a 1% PER MONTH, or 2ah on a 200ah battery, internal loss.

The competition, if they know anything at all, are going to have a field day with that document.

It opened fine in Pale Moon (Firefox fork)

it's the equivelent of fine print

[avanti]

Some of those other current estimates are pretty wacky, too.
100 watts for the idle inverter?! My Outback 2800 is spec'd at 20 watts, backed up by my actual measurement.

And, 50 watts of LEDs must be pretty impressive.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by avanti

Some of those other current estimates are pretty wacky, too.
100 watts for the idle inverter?! My Outback 2800 is spec'd at 20 watts, backed up by my actual measurement.

And, 50 watts of LEDs must be pretty impressive.

is the outback 2800 an inverter/converter/charger

just wondering

[avanti]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

is the outback 2800 an inverter/converter/charger

Yes. With internal transfer switch.