Don't Shoot the Messenger

[BBQ]

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Oops

Not good

I told you so

https://sites.google.com/view/shoot-the-messenger

See letter of March 22, 2018

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[Technomadness]

Illuminating!

Sounds like a CSR got two customers confused and Jim couldn’t be bothered to have his facts straight.

This just reinforces the perception of the RV industry as a bunch of used car salesmen.


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[InterBlog]

It appears to represent a classic culture clash. Those of us who work in health safety and environmental functional areas are trained to document, communicate, and resolve hazards in a very orderly and objective way. For the sake of argument, if I take those emails at face value assuming that the collection has not been cherry-picked for palatability, then the originator is not doing anything that wouldn't be fully expected of him/her in an industrial work setting.

But such a professional environment does tend to seem alien and disturbing to people who are not familiar with it. We live in a highly-dramatized click-bait society where non-statistically-based showboating and pot-banging (literally) is often the method used to gain attention and elevate concerns. Obviously these two approaches are diametrically opposed. People who are familiar with ONLY the showboating method are sometimes scandalized when they encounter a more formal approach, but I wouldn't expect manufacturing executives to be among that cohort.

[booster]

Not at all surprising, based on Hammill's past history of attacking any and everybody that would dare to question or criticize Roadtrek or Hymer.

I do find it a bit interesting as to why the writer did not put up Hammill's last return email that "scared" the writer off. Was this the kind of thing we heard before where there were threats of no warranty or legal action? Not haven't that last email leaves some really loose ends, when also considering how easily the writer agreed to stop contacting Hymer.

My guess is there is something we haven't been let in on.

[Phoebe3]

I am concerned about the veracity and/or completeness of that write-up. I'm not a fan of RoadTrek, but when I read "The defect pictures could be sent at the same resolution as Hymer received but this site does not want to cause harm to Hymer," I have to wonder what that's about since the entire post is about the notices sent and responses to a defective Hymer product.

I think we all want to present our own side of the story in the way that casts us in the best light and our opponent in the worst - even when we are trying to be non-biased. Just human nature.

I will also say that the comments on this forum are what convinced me to not buy a new RoadTrek and I'm happy about that every. single. day.

[mumkin]

For those of us on the Facebook page, we have seen the whole story. The poster involved seems to be a bit of perfectionist, and I suspect that he would find nearly as many issues with most RVs in the market these days. He has been bombarding us with posts - many of them useful - and apparently bombarding EHGNA with emails. JH has a tendency to suggest that the most vocal critics should get mental help... an entirely unprofessional way to deal with what have been some serious issues with his Activ.

He has been told to go through his dealer from now on...

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by mumkin

For those of us on the Facebook page, we have seen the whole story. The poster involved seems to be a bit of perfectionist, and I suspect that he would find nearly as many issues with most RVs in the market these days. He has been bombarding us with posts - many of them useful - and apparently bombarding EHGNA with emails. JH has a tendency to suggest that the most vocal critics should get mental help... an entirely unprofessional way to deal with what have been some serious issues with his Activ.

He has been told to go through his dealer from now on...

I agree that he should go through his dealer; that is who he had his business relation with.

However we all know how dealers work; they are under pay and overworked. The last thing they want to do is paperwork with no chargeable hours. So this is a no-win proposition.

I do not agree that he is a bit of perfectionist; he's an engineer, some of the problems he found are safety related. Hymer should thank him for finding them.

[wincrasher]

ROFL.

This is hilarious tea-spilling. Sorry to say it, but Roadtrek/Hymer/Jim Hammil are are the types that will only learn thru loosing lawsuits and paying hefty damages. They don't appreciate any feedback other than cheerleading (as noted on Roadtrekking on numerous occasions), so emails such as this are just a waste of keystrokes.

FWIW, I wouldn't have redacted any names, and would have posted screenshots of the documents with all the addresses.

[Mike]

Assuming the issues noted by the owner/author are real and significant, might it be prudent to consider escalating your concerns to one of the many government vehicle safety agencies for follow up? Rather than beat a dead horse over it?
In some cases, it might make sense to request some investigation and follow up from the governmental agency responsible, if the problems are that heinous, and the manufacturer's response to the properly documented and presented concerns is either flippant, or presented in a tone that is intimidating or otherwise dismissive. I admit these "conditions" can be highly subjective, and open to argument.
NHTSA/FMVSS and Transport Canada/CMVSS might be interested in vehicle/personal safety issues resulting from the upfitting/modifications made to an otherwise safe vehicle when it left the point of origin factory.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Mike

... might it be prudent to consider escalating your concerns to one of the many government vehicle safety agencies for follow up? Rather than beat a dead horse over it? ....

It would require a specific quantifiable regulatory violation for that approach to bear fruit.

For instance, re: the cabinetry, there would have to be a regulation that says "you must have three screws per X amount of linear cabinetry" and then it would have to be shown that the manufacturer was only putting one or two screws.

A lot of upfitting stuff is done based on perceived good engineering practice rather than specific directives. Therein lies the potential for debate and disagreement.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

It would require a specific quantifiable regulatory violation for that approach to bear fruit.

For instance, re: the cabinetry, there would have to be a regulation that says "you must have three screws per X amount of linear cabinetry" and then it would have to be shown that the manufacturer was only putting one or two screws.

A lot of upfitting stuff is done based on perceived good engineering practice rather than specific directives. Therein lies the potential for debate and disagreement.

Actually, I subscribe to the NHTSA recalls mailing list and I see many safety issues that are somewhat less than quantitative in nature. For example, " Battery May Fail Causing Engine Stall or No Start", "Rear Seat Belt May be Unable to be Latched", "Fire Extinguisher May Be Clogged or Inoperable" to name but a few. None of which are definitively quantifiable, but result in vehicle recalls, none the less.

[Bruceper]

AFAIK all motorhomes must pass compliance for electrical safety, I am unsure if this encompasses wiring or just the major systems such as batteries, GFCI outlets, inverters etc. Worth taking a two minute look into this aspect.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Mike

Actually, I subscribe to the NHTSA recalls mailing list and I see many safety issues that are somewhat less than quantitative in nature. For example, " Battery May Fail Causing Engine Stall or No Start", "Rear Seat Belt May be Unable to be Latched", "Fire Extinguisher May Be Clogged or Inoperable" to name but a few. None of which are definitively quantifiable, but result in vehicle recalls, none the less.

I agree. Any owner that thinks something on their vehicle is unsafe can make a report to NHTSA. Once they get a few complaints they will investigate and request the manufacturer to look deeper and report to NHTSA. Then NHTSA will make a recall decision. There were several recalls on Airstream Interstates that were less significant than this persons issues with their flawed Hymer Aktiv 1.0.


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Mike

Actually, I subscribe to the NHTSA recalls mailing list and I see many safety issues that are somewhat less than quantitative in nature. For example, " Battery May Fail Causing Engine Stall or No Start", "Rear Seat Belt May be Unable to be Latched", "Fire Extinguisher May Be Clogged or Inoperable" to name but a few. None of which are definitively quantifiable, but result in vehicle recalls, none the less.

This is a good point, but I think that many of these are at least partially voluntary and manufacturer-driven, and less regulation-driven.

For instance, a while back, there was an Airstream recall of certain Interstate Class B model years because a rear seat belt could fall behind the seat and make contact with some electrical parts, causing an arc and possibly starting a fire. But I think it might have been Airstream who requested the recall be issued as a means of formalizing their own intervention. I don't think it was the result of a regulator who came down on them and said, "Hey, you need to do this."

But I could be wrong about that. Can anyone shed more light on the nuts and bolts of this process?

[ContinuousImprovement]

There are two issues: Jim Hammill and Safety. The website addresses Mr. Hammill. The goal was not to damage Hymer or have people not buy the Aktiv, the best 20' RV on the market. I see this thread is now discussing safety so I'm interested. There are NFPA RV violations that didn't happen to be in the one-month of posted emails. Mr. Hammill clearly wants us to report these to the authorities rather than Hymer. The NHTSA was contacted and they are only interested if injury has already occurred. FTC will only take action if hundreds of people file complaint. Transport Canada doesn't handle RV plumbing and electrical violations and they won't help because he's not a Canadian citizen. Health Canada is a maze and again, not Canadian. The US and Canadian Fire Marshalls have been told but they aren't sure they have jurisdiction and so far have not said they can help. Does someone have a real contact in a government agency that wants to enforce RV code violations?

BTW: Hymer Corporate (EHG HR VP) was sent an email about Mr. Hammill and they didn't even confirm receipt, as they were requested.

P.S. The email requested HR to contact asking Mr. Hammill not to contact the customer, family and friends anymore. ClassBForum website has large readership and perhaps read by Mr.Hammill so this post will do what the ERWIN HYMER GROUP (@erwinhymergroup.com) didn't.

[Saldar]

Originally Posted by Mike

Actually, I subscribe to the NHTSA recalls mailing list and I see many safety issues that are somewhat less than quantitative in nature. For example, " Battery May Fail Causing Engine Stall or No Start", "Rear Seat Belt May be Unable to be Latched", "Fire Extinguisher May Be Clogged or Inoperable" to name but a few.

This is a serious topic, but it was pointed out to me how dry the warning wordings are, such as "wheels may detach". I looked at the list with this in mind and a fav was "Slide-out diner may slide out while in motion". I gave trailers a wide berth for a while.

[ContinuousImprovement]

There are at least two violations of code writen to prevent injury and death. I believe both deserve an immediate safety notice to customers and manatory recall. Hymer has known of one since January. Mr. Hammill said there would be a recall but I've seen nothing. The webpage and this forum aren't appropriate for reporting these issues but haven't found a better place. In addition, there are other good practice violations that could lead to electrocution. An electrical inspector would reiect my Aktiv. Do RVs and there electronic boxes have an electical inspection process similar to UL? I'm certain of these facts. I see many more issues that should be code violations but I don't own all of the RV standards. Where do I find a non-hymer, preferably government, employee to share my concerns and take action?

[Davydd]

UL certifies electrical components. They do not inspect installations.

[ContinuousImprovement]

You are correct. I was seeking a common term. I'm from aerospace and we Fcc or esa certify aircraft for safety, radio emissions, etc. The rv's inverter doesn't even have an FCC label.

[User1213]

Made in Canada.