Do I remove my batteries for winter

[GLW]

New Pleasureway Ontour 2.2 owner, live in Pennsylvania and getting ready to winterize. Do I remove my 2 Eco-Ion Lithium 100 AH batteries for the winter and if so how do you run the Onan generator each month for a 1/2 hr as I think it needs these batteries to start it. I have read leave them in and read take them out. Appreciate any input from someone who stores their RV outside and lives in a cold weather area and what you do each year. Thanks

[avanti]

Check the specs on storage temperature of your batteries. Most are OK down to zero F. or less. Assuming the batteries have heating pads, you could just turn them on if it gets colder than that.

As for "exercising" the Onan monthly, Well... I guess I shouldn't comment on that "rule".

[@Michael]

I'm in a place where -20F is expected, and much colder is not surprising.

When I had an unheated lithium battery, I removed it. Now that my battery has internal heat, I leave it in the camper with the camper plugged in. I set my charging devices to not charge below 36F, and to keep the battery voltage around 13.2V, rather than fully charged.

If one where in an area where temps of -0F or lower are rare, on the extreme cold days, one could plug the camper in and heat the inside of the camper with a portable electric heater, just to keep the inside from getting too cold.

[Snowy]

I once contacted Pleasureway to see how they handle lithium batteries in cold weather. They don't seem to worry about it - they just make sure the electric systems are off so the battery won't discharge or charge at low temperatures (I think there is some easy-to-access master switch or something that one uses to disconnect the battery for storage). They do not remove the batteries.

[jrobe]

Originally Posted by Snowy

I once contacted Pleasureway to see how they handle lithium batteries in cold weather. They don't seem to worry about it.

I wouldn't worry about it either if I wasn't the one that had to replace the batteries prematurely. That doesn't seem like a great answer.

This is why I have been reluctant to change to lithium batteries in a very cold climate especially if I didn't have access to electricity in storage. With an electric outlet, the heating pads are probably a good solution. I don't think I would want to use a portable space heater (most of them from China) that was running 24/7 all winter in my expensive RV. If I didn't have an electric outlet, I would pull the batteries. In fact, I would probably pull the batteries anyway and not worry too much about the generator.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by jrobe

I don't think I would want to use a portable space heater (most of them from China) that was running 24/7 all winter in my expensive RV.

If the device in question were UL certified (or equivalent) and I knew it was legitimate, I probably would not hesitate to do this. Counterintuitively, buying at WalMart is a pretty good way to ensure this. They know their supply chains and care about certifications.

[Snowy]

Originally Posted by jrobe

I wouldn't worry about it either if I wasn't the one that had to replace the batteries prematurely. That doesn't seem like a great answer.

I would accept your comment at face value if we were talking about WGO or Thor. But that seems to me to be possibly too cynical when thinking about Pleasureway. They are a top tier OEM in terms of quality, and they have a five-year warranty. They know their products and seem to strive to go out their way, at least compared to almost all other OEMs, to make sure customers have a good post-sale experience. They are very conservative in their design and use of technology. It would not be that hard for them to remove the batteries, or just not install them until they ship. Maybe you are right that they know that the climate in Saskatoon, SK is a problem for LFP batteries, and that they just don't care. But isn't a simpler explanation that they know all about their products and have judged that this is just not an issue for the storage or their rigs in Saskatoon, SK?

If i lived in Fairbanks or on the North Slope, i would be more worried and would make sure i had adequate battery heating or i would remove the batteries. In Anchorage, no one i know thinks about it. People who have battery heaters connected to shore power might plug in when it gets cold if it is convenient, but not everyone does. Maybe these people are idiots who would do otherwise if they knew just how bad LFP storage is at ANC winter temperatures. But maybe the degradation is small and not that big a deal in the big scheme of things.

I am not arguing that cold weather LFP battery storage can't be a problem. I am also not arguing that no one should worry about it wherever they happen to live. I am saying that maybe this issue is overblown to some degree.

[Snowy]

Originally Posted by avanti

If the device in question were UL certified (or equivalent)

What do you consider equivalent to UL? I have heard that CE is not good enough, but i hear lots of contradictory things and really don't know.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Snowy

I would accept your comment at face value if we were talking about WGO or Thor. But that seems to me to be possibly too cynical when thinking about Pleasureway. They are a top tier OEM in terms of quality, and they have a five-year warranty. They know their products and seem to strive to go out their way, at least compared to almost all other OEMs, to make sure customers have a good post-sale experience. They are very conservative in their design and use of technology. It would not be that hard for them to remove the batteries, or just not install them until they ship. Maybe you are right that they know that the climate in Saskatoon, SK is a problem for LFP batteries, and that they just don't care. But isn't a simpler explanation that they know all about their products and have judged that this is just not an issue for the storage or their rigs in Saskatoon, SK?

If i lived in Fairbanks or on the North Slope, i would be more worried and would make sure i had adequate battery heating or i would remove the batteries. In Anchorage, no one i know thinks about it. People who have battery heaters connected to shore power might plug in when it gets cold if it is convenient, but not everyone does. Maybe these people are idiots who would do otherwise if they knew just how bad LFP storage is at ANC winter temperatures. But maybe the degradation is small and not that big a deal in the big scheme of things.

I am not arguing that cold weather LFP battery storage can't be a problem. I am also not arguing that no one should worry about it wherever they happen to live. I am saying that maybe this issue is overblown to some degree.

Perhaps details, including small font details of Pleasure way warranty on their lithium batteries could answer your storage question. I am no sure if a phone conversation will be helpful if your batteries fail.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Snowy

What do you consider equivalent to UL? I have heard that CE is not good enough, but i hear lots of contradictory things and really don't know.

I know that UL has competitors, but I have never paid much attention, because UL dominates and it is not hard to find devices with UL certs.
CE is a European thing, and so addresses their standards, not US ones. The biggest problem with CE is that it is a self-certification process. Testing is not required, whereas UL involves a (supposedly) independent, third-party testing process.

[jrobe]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Perhaps details, including small font details of Pleasure way warranty on their lithium batteries could answer your storage question. I am no sure if a phone conversation will be helpful if your batteries fail.

Maybe someone could share some data that shows it is a good idea to store lithium batteries in below zero temperatures for the winter months. That would put my mind at ease.

I looked up Pleasureways warranty and they only give a 1 year warranty on the batteries and it excludes “freezing” the batteries. If you store them in below zero temperatures, you have no warranty from them. After the first year then they would tell you to call the battery manufacturer like every other appliance in the van.

[booster]

Originally Posted by jrobe

Maybe someone could share some data that shows it is a good idea to store lithium batteries in below zero temperatures for the winter months. That would put my mind at ease.

I looked up Pleasureways warranty and they only give a 1 year warranty on the batteries and it excludes “freezing” the batteries. If you store them in below zero temperatures, you have no warranty from them. After the first year then they would tell you to call the battery manufacturer like every other appliance in the van.

I think the only major one I recall is that Victron is OK with it on their batteries. Some don't mention not doing, however, so what they really think is unknown.


I have watched the Pleasure-way implementation of lithium since they first started their first installs a number of years ago. That first year we saw the factory techs at the Minneapolis RV shows with an early install. They new nothing about even the very relaxed recommendations used by most other lithium seller sellers at the time. Said to use them just like AGM in all ways and the equipment was set the same in the van.


They have followed the trends but with a large delay in putting them into their recommendations, equipment, and settings from all I have seen.


For all of the above, I wouldn't count on getting any "current best practices" recommendations from them because of the slow speed of making the rapidly changing recommendations others are going to.


As to the freezing battery statement in the warranty, it is very possible, I think, that the warranty hasn't been updated since the used wet cells.


Pleasure-way does very nice work on their products, but tend to be very old school in general. Of course that is not all bad, either.

[Snowy]

Does anyone know about any good data concerning actual performance degradation of LFP (or other chemistry) battery storage at cold temperatures? The only thing i have seen is ARV's white paper on lithium batteries (attached), but this is at least several years old, and perhaps batteries are getting better in this respect with time.

This white paper lists minimum and long-term (4-6 mo) storage limits for LFPs at -4F. Other chemistries have better low-T performance.

We all probably frequent many forums and websites on class B RVs. I have not seen any horror stories of actual significant degradation coming from cold weather excursions, but i expect there must be *some*, and perhaps you can point me in the right direction. I have seen much concern about this topic, and freak-out posts from people who have let their batteries get to low temperatures and are looking for advice, but not actual reports of damage measured in some good way.

Again, i am not saying that this is not an issue. I just wish i had some hard data on which to base decisions.

[Bud]

I don't understand. A simple deep freeze from Amazon is inexpensive and a 100 amp battery is too! Yet no one has seemed to.................

[booster]

Originally Posted by Snowy

Does anyone know about any good data concerning actual performance degradation of LFP (or other chemistry) battery storage at cold temperatures? The only thing i have seen is ARV's white paper on lithium batteries (attached), but this is at least several years old, and perhaps batteries are getting better in this respect with time.

This white paper lists minimum and long-term (4-6 mo) storage limits for LFPs at -4F. Other chemistries have better low-T performance.

We all probably frequent many forums and websites on class B RVs. I have not seen any horror stories of actual significant degradation coming from cold weather excursions, but i expect there must be *some*, and perhaps you can point me in the right direction. I have seen much concern about this topic, and freak-out posts from people who have let their batteries get to low temperatures and are looking for advice, but not actual reports of damage measured in some good way.

Again, i am not saying that this is not an issue. I just wish i had some hard data on which to base decisions.

Many of us have searched for, and not found, any real data on low temp degradation. Hi temps, yes, there is some lab data, although a lot of it is for Li Ion batteries not LiFePo4.


My guess would be that there is a degradation, but is small enough that most users would not notice it in the real world where other things can kill them quicker, like too deep of discharges, too high of charge rates, too high of temperatures, holding at float when full, etc. How do you separate them all? Expensive data collecting, long term testing.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Bud

I don't understand. A simple deep freeze from Amazon is inexpensive and a 100 amp battery is too! Yet no one has seemed to.................

You probably would spend more on the data collecting equipment and more batteries to make it valid testing. Of course with a usage simulator also.

[avanti]

Honestly, I think the best one could reasonably hope for is clear specs published by the OEM and the hope that they actually have data behind them. Victron says that my batteries are OK to store down to -45°C, and I sort of trust them, so I am not going to lose much sleep over this issue.
https://www.victronenergy.com/media/...ical-data.html

[@Michael]

Originally Posted by avanti

Victron says that my batteries are OK to store down to -45°C, and I sort of trust them, so I am not going to lose much sleep over this issue.
https://www.victronenergy.com/media/...ical-data.html

Either they have confidence in their chemistry (likely the case with Victron) or they are betting that nobody will store their batteries at -45C and be able recognize and undeniably demonstrate that the damage is related to cold storage, while still within the warranty period (likely the case with many other vendors).

Lithionics, another tier 1 manufacturer, follows the bulk of the industry with a -4F storage limit.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by @Michael

Either they have confidence in their chemistry (likely the case with Victron) or they are betting that nobody will store their batteries at -45C and be able recognize and undeniably demonstrate that the damage is related to cold storage, while still within the warranty period (likely the case with many other vendors).

There are a lot of Victron installations supporting off-grid industrial installations in pretty extreme conditions, so I don't think they can afford to bluff.

A little random, but interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrAS78CFums

[jakegw2]

They are fine down to -4 deg F. Note that getting the battery to this temperature would require more than just dipping below that temp overnight, it would require a day or two of consistently below -4 deg temperature. In PA I would just take my chances, probably 8 out of 10 winters will not have a cold stretch cold enough for it to be an issue.

If you have the time and inclination you can add heating pads to your batteries. It isn't that hard and will give you peace of mind no matter the weather. I did this because I lived in MA, but as it turned out we never had an extended cold snap long enough to truly need it for battery protection. The heating pads did end up being very useful however, as the batteries cannot take a charge below freezing, so having them heated allowed us to use the camper in winter weather, which we do regularly.