Diesel vs. Gasoline.....will the diesel engine outive you?

[DUTCH in Atlanta]

Originally Posted by avanti

I agree that noise is a non-issue. Indeed, owning a Sprinter is a dream in all respects but one. I don't even really care about cost. But once you've been stranded in a strange area with a ruined vacation facing an emissions-related no-start condition and all the dealers saying "appointment in two weeks",

An MB or Freightliner dealer should certainly get to it quicker than that! For diesel emissions issues, you certainly don't want to take it to an RV dealer.

I have owned and driven two different OM642 engines, and have never had an emissions problem with either one.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by DUTCH in Atlanta

An MB or Freightliner dealer should certainly get to it quicker than that! For diesel emissions issues, you certainly don't want to take it to an RV dealer.

Obviously, I was talking about MB dealers.

As for prompt service, I suggest you do the experiment of calling some random MB dealers across the country (especially in more rural areas) and pretend to need emergency service. Trust me, I have done this more than once, and the results have been consistent.

Now, I don't mean to exaggerate. I have indeed usually been able to get reasonably prompt service in emergencies, but only by a combination of begging, doe-eyed spouse assistance, and blocking their bay doors with my van (figuratively speaking). Less aggressive folks will not do as well.

I have owned and driven two different OM642 engines, and have never had an emissions problem with either one.

Yeah, I said the same thing for many years. I sincerely hope your story doesn't end the way mine has. (BTW: the OM642 per se is an amazing engine. The issues only apply post MY2006, and seem to have gotten worse in MY2014-ish).

[RossWilliams]

@Avanti

I think you are reaching the wrong conclusion. Your problem seems to be with the inability to get service. That is a real issue. There are only a couple MB dealers in Minnesota and one of them doesn't service Sprinters. There is also one Freightliner dealer. I haven't tried for appointments with either one, but it certainly is a concern.

My question is whether there are non-MB certified mechanics that can do the work. And how do you find them.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

@Avanti

I think you are reaching the wrong conclusion. Your problem seems to be with the inability to get service. That is a real issue.

That is one issue. The other two are:

2) The fact that the Sprinter DEF system is (or at least has been) pathetically unreliable. The fact that there exist owners who have had zero issues proves nothing. I am not by any means basing this only on my personal experience. A casual search on Sprinter-Source will reveal issues far beyond the typical "people only post when they have problems" phenomenon. As an example, Mercedes is now on generation five of the two obscenely-expensive NoX sensors in the Sprinter emissions system. Dealers don't even bother to replace just one, since they know the other one will soon fail. The same is true of the rear speed sensors. Almost everybody seems to have their DEF heater fail (I have not, though). No other vehicle I have owned in the past 20 years has anything like these issues. It is not in my character to worry about such things. Sprinters are different.

3) When they DO fail, they are designed to leave you stranded. Forced repairs of emissions systems are federally mandated, and I support this. It is just that Mercedes' choices for meeting this mandate are simply insane. You will get a check-engine light. Soon after that you will get a message that says "xxx starts remaining -- VISIT WORKSHOP", where XXX is a seemingly random number, but not more than 12--usually 10 or 8. Sometimes the number will randomly skip some of your starts as you try to make it home, without explanation. When you reach zero, your only option is to call a tow truck. All of this is very well-documented.

Your dealer can add 5 starts in an emergency (but only once). He or she can NOT clear the issue without an Internet connection to Mercedes, which requires a very expensive subscription, in addition to the expensive Star Diagnostics hardware and software. Yes, in principle, third-party repair places can subscribe to this, but it is prohibitively expensive for most of them (with some exceptions). Without such a subscription, they cannot help you.

The whole situation is a bad joke.

[magicbus]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

@Avanti

My question is whether there are non-MB certified mechanics that can do the work. And how do you find them.

My local mechanic does heavy equipment and truck work in addition to cars and said he will do anything I need on my Sprinter. He warned me that for many parts he would have to pay dealer prices + shipping but I expected that.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by magicbus

My local mechanic does heavy equipment and truck work in addition to cars and said he will do anything I need on my Sprinter. He warned me that for many parts he would have to pay dealer prices + shipping but I expected that.

Ask him if he can do the learn-in after replacing the NoX sensors. (This is just a random example of many).

It is possible that he has a Star Diagnostics subscription and hardware. If he does, then he should become your best friend. But if he doesn't, he is going to have to take the van to a dealer after the replacement.

[DUTCH in Atlanta]

Originally Posted by avanti

Obviously, I was talking about MB dealers.

As for prompt service, I suggest you do the experiment of calling some random MB dealers across the country (especially in more rural areas) and pretend to need emergency service. Trust me, I have done this more than once, and the results have been consistent.

Try Freightliner instead. It's a MB subsidiary that sells the Sprinter, too. I'll bet there's more of these around than MB dealers who service Sprinter; and they do honor the MB warranty.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by DUTCH in Atlanta

Try Freightliner instead. It's a MB subsidiary that sells the Sprinter, too. I'll bet there's more of these around than MB dealers who service Sprinter; and they do honor the MB warranty.

Yes, this is good advice. Many Freightliner dealers don't even take appointments, since their normal trade is big-rigs off the highway. They don't all work on Sprinters, though.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

Interesting. So which Class B's offer petrol heat?

Here is video on one installed in a Promaster...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JnRACmAZLo

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by avanti

I am aware of the concerns that folks have with GDI engines. However, it is worth noting that GDI is already used in a majority of new cars, and the percentage is growing rapidly. Gasoline engines represent something like 97% of US car and light truck sales. It is lower in Europe, but diesel is fading fast there. Given these facts, making GDI work well is mission critical for the industry, so funding will follow. Diesel, OTOH, is a sideshow, and a fading one. I have little doubt that diesel emissions could be made reliable with proper investment, but I do not believe that such investment will ever be forthcoming. I am much more sanguine that whatever issues exist with GDI will prove to be growing pains. At least I hope so, because sad experience motivates me to try hard not to ever buy diesel again if I have any reasonable alternative.

BTW: petrol-fired versions of nearly all the popular diesel heating systems are available, so avoiding propane should not be difficult.

Thanks Avanti - good points. The GDi problems do appear to be growing pains. Found this article that indicates some manufactures have done a better job with GDi that others...

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...-fictions-gdi/

I knew that gasoline heaters were available, but I see now that they are more widely available and used than I first thought. Here is example of an Espar B5 gas model that would provide a good solution for my next B-van.
Espar B5 Gas - 05 001 184

Maybe a Sprinter with gas engine will be a better choice... I'll be watching for details on how the new Sprinter with gas engine works in use.

[Lakesidemn]

Originally Posted by avanti

That is one issue. The other two are:

2) The fact that the Sprinter DEF system is (or at least has been) pathetically unreliable. The fact that there exist owners who have had zero issues proves nothing. I am not by any means basing this only on my personal experience. A casual search on Sprinter-Source will reveal issues far beyond the typical "people only post when they have problems" phenomenon. As an example, Mercedes is now on generation five of the two obscenely-expensive NoX sensors in the Sprinter emissions system. Dealers don't even bother to replace just one, since they know the other one will soon fail. The same is true of the rear speed sensors. Almost everybody seems to have their DEF heater fail (I have not, though). No other vehicle I have owned in the past 20 years has anything like these issues. It is not in my character to worry about such things. Sprinters are different.

3) When they DO fail, they are designed to leave you stranded. Forced repairs of emissions systems are federally mandated, and I support this. It is just that Mercedes' choices for meeting this mandate are simply insane. You will get a check-engine light. Soon after that you will get a message that says "xxx starts remaining -- VISIT WORKSHOP", where XXX is a seemingly random number, but not more than 12--usually 10 or 8. Sometimes the number will randomly skip some of your starts as you try to make it home, without explanation. When you reach zero, your only option is to call a tow truck. All of this is very well-documented.

Your dealer can add 5 starts in an emergency (but only once). He or she can NOT clear the issue without an Internet connection to Mercedes, which requires a very expensive subscription, in addition to the expensive Star Diagnostics hardware and software. Yes, in principle, third-party repair places can subscribe to this, but it is prohibitively expensive for most of them (with some exceptions). Without such a subscription, they cannot help you.

The whole situation is a bad joke.

I recently had the dreaded "10 starts remaining" on on a long road trip. I had not seen it before, so it freaked me out at first. After internet searching, I realized how common it was, but I stopped at a Mercedes dealer in El Paso to see if they could reset it. They were not a Sprinter dealer so they could not obtain access to the online system that allows them to reset the counter. However, they did have a tech on hand who worked at a Sprinter dealer and still had his username/password. They were nice enough to login to Mercedes from the parking lot and reset my 2015 RoadTrek. They didn't even charge me! Awesome service, but I was lucky.

Anyway, I mention all this because I found a link to this on Sprinter-source. I have not needed it yet, so I hope it works as advertised. If it does, it could be a road trip life-saver.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-ca...2/232397528789

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Lakesidemn

Anyway, I mention all this because I found a link to this on Sprinter-source. I have not needed it yet, so I hope it works as advertised. If it does, it could be a road trip life-saver.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-ca...2/232397528789

Yeah, I have been tempted to get one of those. However, I have already spent a lot of money on a clone Star Diagnostics system and an associated laptop, so I am hoping that next time I get a start count (and I am sure I will), maybe it will help.

There have been mixed reports about whether they work or not. I'm sure they do sometimes. However, it probably has to do with exactly what is wrong (and possibly by your model year). If there is a genuine fault, the problem will obviously come back. But even then, getting extra starts would have great value.

[DUTCH in Atlanta]

Originally Posted by Lakesidemn

Anyway, I mention all this because I found a link to this on Sprinter-source. I have not needed it yet, so I hope it works as advertised. If it does, it could be a road trip life-saver.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-ca...2/232397528789

Less expensive with lower shipping charge here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-ca...-/252485713121

Instructional demo here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf5YCoZYauE

[abj87]

We decided go with a gasoline van to convert for a number of reasons.

1) Over the last 20 years gasoline engine efficiency has been steady rising while diesels have lost mileage due to increased emissions standards. I have seen this first hand on my 2002 and 2008 Duramax diesel pickups. New DEF systems have helped but at the cost of increased complexity.

2) Repair costs of diesel engines are exponentially higher than gasoline engines. Some gasoline engines can be entirely replaced for the cost of some repairs on a diesel engine (injectors,injection pump,DPF DEF system).

4) Typically maintenance costs are lower on gasoline vans. Particularity when comparing US domestic manufacturers to Mercedes Benz.

5) Service life is similar.

6) Reduced purchase price, particularly in the used market. Comparable gasoline vans are 15% to 40% of the cost of a diesel van in our area (North East).

[Paul the Gardens]

Originally Posted by abj87

We decided go with a gasoline van to convert for a number of reasons.

1) Over the last 20 years gasoline engine efficiency has been steady rising while diesels have lost mileage due to increased emissions standards. I have seen this first hand on my 2002 and 2008 Duramax diesel pickups. New DEF systems have helped but at the cost of increased complexity.

2) Repair costs of diesel engines are exponentially higher than gasoline engines. Some gasoline engines can be entirely replaced for the cost of some repairs on a diesel engine (injectors,injection pump,DPF DEF system).

4) Typically maintenance costs are lower on gasoline vans. Particularity when comparing US domestic manufacturers to Mercedes Benz.

5) Service life is similar.

6) Reduced purchase price, particularly in the used market. Comparable gasoline vans are 15% to 40% of the cost of a diesel van in our area (North East).

Those six points answered well the question initiated in this post.. Even MB will have gas engines.

Perhaps for a pickup truck pulling a lot of weight a diesel having more torque is a good choice? I find the gas engine on my Promaster fast and quiet as it takes me up to speed .

[magicbus]

[

Originally Posted by abj87

We decided go with a gasoline van to convert for a number of reasons.

1) Over the last 20 years gasoline engine efficiency has been steady rising while diesels have lost mileage due to increased emissions standards. I have seen this first hand on my 2002 and 2008 Duramax diesel pickups. New DEF systems have helped but at the cost of increased complexity.

2) Repair costs of diesel engines are exponentially higher than gasoline engines. Some gasoline engines can be entirely replaced for the cost of some repairs on a diesel engine (injectors,injection pump,DPF DEF system).

4) Typically maintenance costs are lower on gasoline vans. Particularity when comparing US domestic manufacturers to Mercedes Benz.

5) Service life is similar.

6) Reduced purchase price, particularly in the used market. Comparable gasoline vans are 15% to 40% of the cost of a diesel van in our area (North East).

So I guess I have to ask why Amazon would make such a poor business decision and order 20,000 of these high-maintenance, failure-prone, expensive-to-repair engines.

I only got a diesel because it was in the coach I bought. I really like the way it drives and not needing to carry an extra 10 gallons of fuel to be able to drive all day. So far my biggest concern has been will it start when the temp is 15 degrees (it does).

[abj87]

Originally Posted by magicbus

[

So I guess I have to ask why Amazon would make such a poor business decision and order 20,000 of these high-maintenance, failure-prone, expensive-to-repair engines.

I only got a diesel because it was in the coach I bought. I really like the way it drives and not needing to carry an extra 10 gallons of fuel to be able to drive all day. So far my biggest concern has been will it start when the temp is 15 degrees (it does).

Don't know, possible the cost / benefit analysis shifted towards the diesel when used as a full time delivery vehicle.

[DUTCH in Atlanta]

Originally Posted by magicbus

I only got a diesel because it was in the coach I bought. I really like the way it drives and not needing to carry an extra 10 gallons of fuel to be able to drive all day. So far my biggest concern has been will it start when the temp is 15 degrees (it does).

And if you use Power Service Diesel Fuel Supplement +Cetane Boost, you won't have that concern either.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by DUTCH in Atlanta

And if you use Power Service Diesel Fuel Supplement +Cetane Boost, you won't have that concern either.

Mercedes forbids the use of any fuel additives except for anti-jel (which is in any event the correct additive for winter no-start issues).

My Sprinter has never failed to start even in reasonably extreme cold.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by magicbus

[

So I guess I have to ask why Amazon would make such a poor business decision and order 20,000 of these high-maintenance, failure-prone, expensive-to-repair engines.

Not necessarily a bad business decision at all. Sprinters are wonderful vehicles in many ways. In the right situations, they are a great choice. (For example, fleet owners have repair options that are not available to typical RV'ers). It is just that the diesel DEF issues present a huge challenge for recreational use that many find nearly fatal.