Diesel vs. Gasoline.....will the diesel engine outive you?

[Bud]

Originally Posted by DUTCH in Atlanta

He didn't ask. He just stated that there is none.

See my most recent post for a link of interest. Follow some of the recommendations or not. It's up to you and ymmv.

Thanks for the correction, he only provided the opportunity for anyone to provide some evidence that Mercedes has got it wrong.

Bud

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by DUTCH in Atlanta

This guy is overly verbose and is trolling for money, but a lot of what he says and recommends is worth following:

Mercedes-Benz & Sprinter OM642 BlueTec Diesel Issues/Problems | Stephens Service Center - Sacramento's Best Mercedes-Benz Service & Repairs

This is a good summary about Stephens. https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...9&postcount=10

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

This is a good summary about Stephens. https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...9&postcount=10

I don't believe everything on the Internet like you do.....

[avanti]

Originally Posted by jrobe

I change my oil and filter every 10,000 miles. It is cheap insurance and more logical than 20,000 miles. I can even do it myself in about 20 minutes and for about $100 if I watch for the correct oil on sale and stock up.

I also replace the fuel filter every 10,000 miles or so which may be even more important with more and more biodiesels. My Freighliner dealers will do this for about $200 which is a bargain about once a year.

I also go to my dentist and doctor for occasional preventative checkups. This seems like all common sense stuff to me.

1) How is 10K "more logical" than 20K? This claim interests me very much.

2) Do you go to the dentist and doctor twice as often as they recommend?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by DUTCH in Atlanta

it's obvious that your mind is already made up. Where I come from that's called "contempt prior to investigation".

Please consider going a little more slowly when forming conclusions about people whom you don't know from Adam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-zDt9FGJi8

[SteveJ]

Originally Posted by avanti

Please consider going a little more slowly when forming conclusions about people whom you don't know from Adam.

Actual facts. Awesome.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

Please consider going a little more slowly when forming conclusions about people whom you don't know from Adam.

I have seen this video recently about the new Mazda HCCI engine, he is a very good presenter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhzMGbQXmY

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I have seen this video recently about the new Mazda HCCI engine, he is a very good presenter.

Yeah, he has a whole series of useful videos. I am a fan.

It is SO refreshing to get a view into the actual science behind modern engineering claims. I know I should stay out of these mindless threads, but it just drives me bonkers to see post after post with quantitive claims that are simply pulled out of the air. Seems that whatever the OEM recommends at any given time, exactly half of it is always the right number. And then there is the perennial litany of vacuous statements like "My mechanic has been fixing engines for 30 years and he says...", or "Oil is cheap and engines are expensive", or "Just look at the color of your oil after a few miles and tell me that...".

Sigh.

[magicbus]

Thanks for the great video. I see everyone talking about 20K miles, but I don't do that in a year. I should be around 10K when I get to Florida after 1 year of ownership so I think I'll have it changed according to the 1 year rule.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

Yeah, he has a whole series of useful videos. I am a fan.

It is SO refreshing to get a view into the actual science behind modern engineering claims. I know I should stay out of these mindless threads, but it just drives me bonkers to see post after post with quantitive claims that are simply pulled out of the air. Seems that whatever the OEM recommends at any given time, exactly half of it is always the right number. And then there is the perennial litany of vacuous statements like "My mechanic has been fixing engines for 30 years and he says...", or "Oil is cheap and engines are expensive", or "Just look at the color of your oil after a few miles and tell me that...".

Sigh.

The internet provides more freedom for opinions, trolling, or other self-expressions. In my past line of work, before retirement, opinion ventures were often treated by “great, but please, put the data on the table”

[booster]

I agree on the participation in too many of theses discussions, but will comment on the video.


Yes, well presented, and also likely somehow tied to the manufacturer but unknown for certain.


Without going into detail, IMO the thing to watch for in these type presentations is not as much what is presented, as it is often very good and accurate. The thing to watch for is what is not presented when you compare to what actually goes on in the real world. For instance, in this case, essentially no cold weather, short trip, frequent cold start type data, even though we consistently see good data on cold starts contributing a disproportional amount of wear to an engine compared to run time. The conditions the tests were run under were very favorable to long oil and engine life.


IMO, there is some other stuff going on currently, as I am seeing lots of things that indicate the timing chain wear and failure is getting to be a big problem and happening quite early in many engines. I saw one tech article that claimed a reaction between the coating they are using on the chains and pulleys reacting with some oil additives, including zinc, but that was only one article so not even close to conclusive. Design, materials, oil, related? I don't think anyone who will say anything knows at this point, but someone does.


Sidebar, he is dead wrong on marketing not putting unwarranted claims on products over engineering recommendations. It happens all the time, and I saw it many times in my working life as an engineer that dealt with those kinds of things a lot.

[DUTCH in Atlanta]

Originally Posted by booster

I agree on the participation in too many of theses discussions, but will comment on the video.


Yes, well presented, and also likely somehow tied to the manufacturer but unknown for certain.

Yes! Test data generated by the claimant to support their own marketing claims vs test data generated by an independent source to support the claims. Bias anyone?

[magicbus]

Originally Posted by DUTCH in Atlanta

Yes! Data generated by the claimant to support their own claims vs data generated by an independent source to support the claims. Bias anyone?

I guess you are stepping up to fund a 500K test on a dynamometer along with the 5 100K mile tear down inspections!

I write money transfer software. One of the things we have to do is self-certify that we meet certain security standards. Nobody inspects us, but if we are ever involved in a theft and it came out we were lying about what we said we do, we'd be the first in line for the attorneys.

Now if you want to say that Mobil faked the entire show just so you wouldn't use twice as much of their product (think about that for a minute), but you won't fund the research personally, I'm not sure who you would believe!

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by magicbus

Thanks for the great video. I see everyone talking about 20K miles, but I don't do that in a year. I should be around 10K when I get to Florida after 1 year of ownership so I think I'll have it changed according to the 1 year rule.

The average person who drives an RV of any kind is around 5,000 miles per year.... maybe a little more in a Class B..... BUT, how many of you are driving 20,000 miles or more???

YES, regardless of mileage, you should definitely have your oil changed once per year...

If you disagree with that.... please share why you think so.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

..........................
Sidebar, he is dead wrong on marketing not putting unwarranted claims on products over engineering recommendations. It happens all the time, and I saw it many times in my working life as an engineer that dealt with those kinds of things a lot.

My experience is a little different so it could depend on a company. We strived to have technical evidence supporting marketing claims. The company high standards culture, going way back to the founders, permeate the whole organization. In addition, a very strong competition kept us honest, being proven wrong could have been disastrous. The company slowly changed with new higher management looking for profit and how to fill their pockets, but I am hearing from friends that the old culture is coming back.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

My experience is a little different so it could depend on a company. We strived to have technical evidence supporting marketing claims. The company high standards culture, going way back to the founders, permeate the whole organization. In addition, a very strong competition kept us honest, being proven wrong could have been disastrous. The company slowly changed with new higher management looking for profit and how to fill their pockets, but I am hearing from friends that the old culture is coming back.

Hmm, let's see.....do you remember Chevron F310... making claims about their gasoline being cleaner than other brands? How about VW cheating??
Or Cadillac with their cylinder deactivation 8-6-4 technology.... it didn't work out well...
Sounded really good...

I think it is VERY SAD that you and apparently a lot of other people get sucked in by marketing....I've seen a number of these videos and think that the presentation is great... depending upon the subject he's presenting...... unfortunately...a lot of this new Mazda engine is predicated on certain "assumptions"..he even says so in the video... they're not sharing everything with him..so, you have to take it in this context...
As for being proved wrong being disastrous... that's only the case if what they are saying is proved to be a deliberate lie like in the case of the VW scandal... It's not if it's just bad technology...... guess who is going to be the guinea pig on the testing of this new technology?? Consumers of course.... I don't want to be an early adoptor of all this stuff...if the technology stands up to the test of time.... great.... maybe it will...who knows?

In the meantime..the marketing team can say anything they like... Don't forget... many times people will say in hindsight... seemed like a good idea at the time....

Sometimes...a new idea just doesn't work better than the old tried and true method.....
Marketing is all about selling something "new"....it generates excitement and sales.

Your experience at your company sounds great.... unfortunately..this doesn't translate to all companies...

Again.... you can believe anything you want...if you're invested... I'm a little skeptical...

[booster]

Originally Posted by magicbus

I guess you are stepping up to fund a 500K test on a dynamometer along with the 5 100K mile tear down inspections!

I write money transfer software. One of the things we have to do is self-certify that we meet certain security standards. Nobody inspects us, but if we are ever involved in a theft and it came out we were lying about what we said we do, we'd be the first in line for the attorneys.

Now if you want to say that Mobil faked the entire show just so you wouldn't use twice as much of their product (think about that for a minute), but you won't fund the research personally, I'm not sure who you would believe!

Real world life testing is horribly tough to do for products that last as long a vehicles do and see so many varied conditions and use patterns. By the time any real testing can be completed, the product life cycle is over, so pretty useless at that point.


Getting back to the video, can't speak for Dutch, but I can speak from personal experience. That video looked to be essentially the same format as presentation style as lots of others that I have seen from manufacturers for their products (of many different kinds). They very carefully make them accurate for science and testing, with the goal of maximizing the value of the product. They plainly state what they base the 20K interval on, so not deceptive, just somewhat unrepresentative of real world (see above). I have sat through oil presentations that were amazingly close to the same thing, but they were for industrial lubes for things like geaboxes and such.



The whole engine oil market has changed a lot from when they were harping to change oil at 2K or 3K, as they now have to match the vehicle manufacturers rapidly increasing intervals. I am sure they would love to tell you change twice as often, like they did in the past, but that doesn't work in the market anymore.


For what it is worth, I think fuel dilution and water contamination are far more likely to take out an engine than stretching oil changes, but both of those items may, or may not, be present in long or short oil change intervals, so doesn't answer that question at all.

[avanti]

Of course the real world is vastly complex, and no amount of science will cover all possible situations. However, I contend that the contents of that video substantially support the OEMs claim that 20K OCIs are plausible under normal driving conditions. I posted it to counter all the nonsense postings that say "you are crazy to go more than X miles", where "X" is pulled out of thin air, or attributed to hearsay from Old Railroad Bill the crusty mechanic. The conspiracy theories about evil marketers are just as baseless. There are good companies and there are bad companies. But to live your life as if everyone was a liar is pretty pathetic. The OEMs have vastly more data than anybody else. The rational course is to follow their recommendations unless there is a very good reason to do otherwise. Conspiracy theories or "That's the way dad did it" or "common sense" do not count.

Originally Posted by booster

For what it is worth, I think fuel dilution and water contamination are far more likely to take out an engine than stretching oil changes, but both of those items may, or may not, be present in long or short oil change intervals, so doesn't answer that question at all.

I totally agree. This is why constant stop-and-go driving is considered by the OEMs as "harsh conditions" and require more frequent OCIs. It is also why Sprinters have extremely sensitive "high oil" alarms to let you know if your oil volume is increasing.

[Bud]

Is it time for another 'John Cadogan' video?

[MsNomer]

Back to the original subject:

I drove Mercedes Diesels for 30 years. The first one gave me 445,000 miles; its grill with star is on display in my son's new diesel Sprinter, which I upfitted this spring.

When I was choosing a van for myself in 2014, I was quite thankful the gas Promaster was available. Yes, the newer diesels are cleaner than the old, but the raw diesel at the pump still stinks and lingers as bad as it did in 1971.

And back off-topic: I laughed at that 5,000 mile/year average for Class B. We are putting miles on at 30,000/year. I didn’t build this baby to be a driveway ornament.