death to diesel...! ( death by diesel?)

[Bud]

It is not just economics that favor the gas engine vs Sprinter diesel. There are others......

What are the advantages of the Sprinter diesel engine other than the B attached to it? There are Sprinter diesel fans here I assume. What are the 'realistic' advantages of the Sprinter diesel other than the B attached?

I'll start with the fact that I can not head west out of Denver on the interstate and maintain the speed limit when the temperature is 100 degrees. The cooling system won't keep up with my Express Van. The Sprinter I assume will do it.

So what is another advantage?

Bud

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by Bud

So what is another advantage?

I think it's currently the only Eurovan designed with a second alternator in mind. Our Trend has no trouble keeping up with the speed limits in Utah's summer heat.

[BBQ]

.

With the Ford Transit and RAM ProMaster competition in full force,
MB will have no choice but to offer a viable operating cost solution.

[mojoman]

I drove across Nevada an Utah 100+ heat avg +80mph & full load, AC on high, Promaster temp gauge normal the entire trip. Italian engineering.

[Bud]

Originally Posted by mojoman

I drove across Nevada an Utah 100+ heat avg +80mph & full load, AC on high, Promaster temp gauge normal the entire trip. Italian engineering.

I don't think the Express Van would have a problem either, but

1) Big difference going up a mountain (overcoming gravity) for an extended period of time like I described earlier.

2) Also overcoming a very steep grade, switch backs, at 10-15 mph with 9000 pounds, the radiator fans just won't supply enough air.

Both of the above examples seldom occur, rare for most of us.

Bud

[mkguitar]

Huh?

I live in Phx...I have ac in an express 3500. it works
PHX is at 1400', much of the State is over 7000' and we have plenty 6 & 7% grades

there are added dual fans and they rarely come on...maybe a total of 30 minutes in the last 20,000 miles



mike

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Bud

I'll start with the fact that I can not head west out of Denver on the interstate and maintain the speed limit when the temperature is 100 degrees. The cooling system won't keep up with my Express Van. The Sprinter I assume will do it.

Never heard a complaint regarding the Chevy cooling system. Trip from Wisconsin to Northern California in hot August in a 2017 210 Chevy Express 3500 across the Rockies with the coach loaded. The meter never so much budged.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Never heard a complaint regarding the Chevy cooling system. Trip from Wisconsin to Northern California in hot August in a 2017 210 Chevy Express 3500 across the Rockies with the coach loaded. The meter never so much budged.

If that is the case, they have definitely made some changes to them. If you do a search, you will find lots of information on both the transmissions and water getting too hot, mostly from steep grades in warm weather. We have one, a 2007 190P, and we have seen it first hand. With dual Spal add on electric fans we can just keep it within what I consider the desirable range of 200* on the transmission and 210* on the water, but we haven't gone up anything big when it was 100* outside either. If you are one that is OK at 240* on each, you will get there much less often. There is also the very common problem of juttering brakes when going down the steep grades.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

If that is the case, they have definitely made some changes to them. If you do a search, you will find lots of information on both the transmissions and water getting too hot, mostly from steep grades in warm weather. We have one, a 2007 190P, and we have seen it first hand. With dual Spal add on electric fans we can just keep it within what I consider the desirable range of 200* on the transmission and 210* on the water, but we haven't gone up anything big when it was 100* outside either. If you are one that is OK at 240* on each, you will get there much less often. There is also the very common problem of juttering brakes when going down the steep grades.

Does your 190 have the 5.7L or the 6.0L and do you have an external transmission oil cooler and if so, is it routed through the bottom tank of the radiator?

I have less experience with the Chevys, (a 2002 190 with the 5.7 and the 2017 210 with the 6.0), and more with Dodge. When you consider how much they push the GVW envelope in class Bs, it's no surprise that they have potential engine/tranny temp and brake problems but to some extent this is caused by cockpit error like failing to keep engine rpm in the proper range when ascending and descending steep grades.

I think that that over the years they have gotten better, e.g., I think the cargo capacity of the 190 has increased quite a bit since 2002. However, the current 210 has substantially less cargo headroom than the current 190.

There was considerable "juddering" on the 2002, a gift from the previous owner. Replacing the rotors and installing premium pads resolved it but there is no question that it's not all that hard to trash the brakes on any Class B loaded to the gills. The transition to disc brakes all around seems to have helped.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Does your 190 have the 5.7L or the 6.0L and do you have an external transmission oil cooler and if so, is it routed through the bottom tank of the radiator?

I have less experience with the Chevys, (a 2002 190 with the 5.7 and the 2017 210 with the 6.0), and more with Dodge. When you consider how much they push the GVW envelope in class Bs, it's no surprise that they have potential engine/tranny temp and brake problems but to some extent this is caused by cockpit error like failing to keep engine rpm in the proper range when ascending and descending steep grades.

I think that that over the years they have gotten better, e.g., I think the cargo capacity of the 190 has increased quite a bit since 2002. However, the current 210 has substantially less cargo headroom than the current 190.

There was considerable "juddering" on the 2002, a gift from the previous owner. Replacing the rotors and installing premium pads resolved it but there is no question that it's not all that hard to trash the brakes on any Class B loaded to the gills. The transition to disc brakes all around seems to have helped.

We have a 6.0 with a factory trans cooler that is in the factory configuration of the cooler first and radiator second. It also has radiator based oil cooler. We have added to of the biggest Spal electric fans I could fit on it at 16" and 25 amps apiece. I also sealed all the air bypasses I could around the radiator and blocked the front of the wheels well with splash shields in the front, which did help some.

I will be replacing the trans cooler with a larger, higher quality on, with more capacity, so it will be plumbed as a stand alone with no radiator connection. It will also have a bypass thermostat to hold the temperature up when it is cold out, which is a good idea when using a stand alone cooler. With our current setup, the trans runs decent temps until the water temp starts to climb above thermostat setting (meaning the radiator is totally hot across it), then the trans temp temp climbs with the water temp. Separating them should help a lot.

The brake problem is very common and appears to be primary caused by the brake pads themselves, which are ceramic. They don't seem to lay down a good transfer layer or clean off any imprinting from being stored in one place for long periods. Changing to high end, aggressive, semi metallic pads cures many of the the issues. Higher quality front rotors also help, although I am not a big fan of the ones with lots of holes and/or slots. A few small slots to help keep the pads clean, or plain, rotors of high quality are a bit expensive but worth it IMO. We changed ours out, all the pads and rotors, at least 5 years ago, and have never had any signs of fade or judder, even though at times they were hot enough to smell a little when we stopped. We do downshift if needed, but don't have to be particularly slow going downhill, like many folks do.

There are only a few of the Chevies of the previous generation that was ended in about 2003(?) and had the 5.7 engine in the 190's, but as far as I know they had very similar designs inside. The front suspension and engine bay were redesigned and the bay and doghouse got smaller. This may have contributed to the cooling issues, as the air has less outlet area. I can tell you for certain, that the newer 190's have less storage space than the pre 2007 ones. The power sofa models nearly obliterated the underbed storage usefulness by putting the braces right in the middle of it. The huge enclosed bathroom eats up all the space where a third seat or armoire would be. The audio cabinet aft of the kitchen has been removed. The furnace has been moved from the rear bolster to the front armoire but they used the same inside water tank in the bolster that used to wrap around the furnace. All they did was lose the space in the armoire and didn't gain any in the bolster. The took a chunk out of the cabinet on the passenger side above the bed for the DVD player so lost space and access. They gained a little bit of space by getting rid of the kitchen exhaust fan, but that is about it unless you buy the head bonker over cab storage bin.

When you talk about cargo capacity in weight. The new units do not have more capacity than the older ones to any extent. It is how it is listed, which is very deceptive now. This has been discussed extensively in another thread. The older units had more things included in the base weight, like water and any optional equipment, but the new ones don't. If you remove that stuff from the rating of our 2007 190, you get the rating for the new ones with a very close margin. Same for the 210s which have very paltry cargo capacity. You are correct it is less than the 190s by about 500# The older ones were in the 500# range, not the 1000+ they are now, but they are the same in reality old or new, as the vans haven't changed, just the spec method. We have seen numerous cases of 210s being quite severely overloaded because of the deceptive load ratings by Roadtrek. I suggest you look at some of the other threads to see how extreme it really is. Our personal stuff if pretty light compared to many folks, but we have added batteries, charging stuff, solar, etc and our 190 is within a couple of hundred pounds of max 9600# if the tanks are full.

If you are comparing the Chevies to the older Dodges, then what you say has some merit. The Dodges did a very good job of space utilization and storage, although some folks think they are a too crowded because of it. IMO I will take storage space over openness any day. We go camping to have all the openness of the outdoors so that is where we are anyway.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Bud

It is not just economics that favor the gas engine vs Sprinter diesel. There are others......

What are the advantages of the Sprinter diesel engine other than the B attached to it? There are Sprinter diesel fans here I assume. What are the 'realistic' advantages of the Sprinter diesel other than the B attached?

I'll start with the fact that I can not head west out of Denver on the interstate and maintain the speed limit when the temperature is 100 degrees. The cooling system won't keep up with my Express Van. The Sprinter I assume will do it.

So what is another advantage?

Bud

Plain and simple for me was the B attached to the diesel. As I think I mentioned, the engine was no consideration other than the turbo effect in the mountains which you can also get with a gas engine. I learned why Subarus were so popular in the mountain states the first time I drove a turbo Outback in Colorado. Knowing that aspects gave me no qualms in buying a diesel for the first time.

[mkguitar]

This Mornings Guardian:

Talking about a scheme to get older diesels off the road and re-structuring tax advantages which favoured diesel.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-scrap-diesels


Mike

[BBQ]

.

Change.org

Petitioning Global Car Manufacturers

Car Companies: Time to End Diesel

Petitioning Global Car Manufacturers Car Companies: Time to End Diesel

[mojoman]

Our scholars in Sacramento have exhausted the amount they can skim off the transportation funds, now they it seems raising the tax on diesel 20 cents is getting to be very popular. Just drove down HWY 5, I though I was driving in a third world country.

[BBQ]

.

After VW’s Record $2.8B Fine, Mercedes-Benz Parent Daimler Could Be Next

After VW's Record $2.8B Fine, Mercedes-Benz Parent Daimler Could Be Next - NBC News

[booster]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

After VW’s Record $2.8B Fine, Mercedes-Benz Parent Daimler Could Be Next

After VW's Record $2.8B Fine, Mercedes-Benz Parent Daimler Could Be Next - NBC News

It does make one wonder if that could be related to the new 4 cylinder in the Sprinters having such good performance compared to the older engines, even with the new emission standards. Plus Fiat Chrysler getting a look.

Grab the popcorn, it could be long tale.

[Davydd]

Sprinters fall under trucks don't they? If so, there are no claims to fuel mileage to contest like the automobile deception claims. There is no disagreement the 4 cylinder does get much better mileage than their 6 cylinder but there are no published claims for either that I am aware of.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Sprinters fall under trucks don't they? If so, there are no claims to fuel mileage to contest like the automobile deception claims. There is no disagreement the 4 cylinder does get much better mileage than their 6 cylinder but there are no published claims for either that I am aware of.

The VW problem was that they put in software to bypass the emissions stuff when not on emissions test, so they are putting out like 40 times the allowed pollutants, and it appeared that is what the article was referring to with the other manufacturers. Part (maybe most) of the reason they did the cheating was because if they had engines that met the emissions rules, they lost too much mileage and performance. Basically the cheat was caused by losing mileage if they didn't do it, but the mileage claims were not the issue AFAIK.

I have long wondered if any other manufacturers would get dragged into this, as they all put each others cars though very extensive competitive testing. It is unlikely that they all would not stumble across the programmed cheating, as they certainly would examine the code in detail. It was also kine of interesting how quiet the competition was during the VW stuff going on, with no exploiting of the issue by the competitive brands.

[BBQ]

.

A class-action lawsuit has been filed against Mercedes stating the automaker knowingly programmed its Clean Diesel BlueTEC vehicles to emit illegal, dangerous levels of nitrogen oxide (NOx) in virtually all real world driving conditions and likely contain a “defeat device” used to cheat testing.

https://www.hbsslaw.com/cases/merced...etec-emissions

[SiennaGuy]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Sprinters fall under trucks don't they? If so, there are no claims to fuel mileage to contest like the automobile deception claims.

Somehow, I thought that trucks had a different, less stringent, set of rules for emissions than passenger cars.