death to diesel...! ( death by diesel?)

[avanti]

Gasoline fired Espars exist, and are functionally identical to the diesel units. I know nothing of availability in the US, though.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I've had two different second alternators, the Nations that Roadtrek installs and other people have used and now a much larger Delco-Remy. To me there is no comparison in performance and from what has been said, the Delco is too big to install in a Promaster so that is another positive for the Sprinter. I don't know about the Ford Transit capability.

The cold rating difference between the two is about 15% so I imagine that where you get the greater benefit from the Delco is a significantly lower hot derating and perhaps a higher low RPM output.

Apparently Roadtrek is in conversation (whatever that means) with Nations toward building a custom unit for their coaches. That's sort of their modus operandi for electrical and electronics - grab something off the shelf, and if it fills the bill, fine but if it doesn't, on to Plan B. That's precisely the evolution of the inverters they now provide.

[rockymtnb]

Originally Posted by avanti

Gasoline fired Espars exist, and are functionally identical to the diesel units. I know nothing of availability in the US, though.

Sportsmobile has been installing the Rixen / Espar B5 gasoline fired hydronic systems for a number of years now, since Ford discontinued diesel in the E series vans around 2010.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by avanti

Gasoline fired Espars exist, and are functionally identical to the diesel units. I know nothing of availability in the US, though.

Maybe there is a pollution level issue involved? CARB?

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

The cold rating difference between the two is about 15% so I imagine that where you get the greater benefit from the Delco is a significantly lower hot derating and perhaps a higher low RPM output.

Apparently Roadtrek is in conversation (whatever that means) with Nations toward building a custom unit for their coaches. That's sort of their modus operandi for electrical and electronics - grab something off the shelf, and if it fills the bill, fine but if it doesn't, on to Plan B. That's precisely the evolution of the inverters they now provide.

There have been a few postings of just what the Nations/DC Power alternators will do for overall output. From what I have seen, they will do about 60-65% of rated when actually in use, as the Balmar regulator turns them down when they get too hot. The Delco is 100% duty rated for the rated output, so it would be very close to the rated over time. Anyone that thinks they will get 270 or 280 amps for more than a few minutes is in for a big surprise. Avanti posted a charging curve for his 270 amp unit in another thread which showed the process over time, and it was very enlightening.

When you compare the Nations and Delco, you really are looking at about 165 amps average vs probably 290 amps average over time, so they are substantially different.

We are currently running two DC Power alternators in parallel on our Chevy, a 250 amp and a 280 amp. We have them limited by an Ample Power regulator so we have either 280 total amps or 180 total amps. At the 280 amp setting, at idle, we get a bit over 200 amps continuous, but the will go over 200 degrees F if idling over about 10 minutes. The Chevies have the alternators further back in the engine compartment so less cool air is not moving, so worse than a Sprinter or Promaster install, but safer in relation to water or road trash.

[B Eventually]

Originally Posted by avanti

Gasoline fired Espars exist, and are functionally identical to the diesel units. I know nothing of availability in the US, though.

FarOutVan installed a gasoline Webasto in their Transit conversion. Unfortunately, they've encountered some issues that they're still troubleshooting.

[mojoman]

Best deal for a gas (petrol) Webasto unit is on ebay shipped from Germany.

[rockymtnb]

Originally Posted by mlts22

Rumor has it that Mercedes is going to make a gasser van again in the US. I don't know how true that is, but it is interesting.

That would be interesting if Mercedes outfitted the next generation Sprinter with their new M256 inline 6 gasoline engine. It's plenty powerful, providing up to 408 horsepower and 370 ft-lb of torque.

Perhaps more intriguing to RV users is the inline starter generator (ISG) that's integrated into the drivetrain, providing up to 15 kW of auxiliary electrical output at 48 volts dc. That will power electrical air conditioning, accessory pumps, and still have plenty left over to rapidly recharge a sizeable lithium battery pack.

No belt driven auxiliary generators needed, and in fact the M256 has no belt drives!

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

There have been a few postings of just what the Nations/DC Power alternators will do for overall output. From what I have seen, they will do about 60-65% of rated when actually in use, as the Balmar regulator turns them down when they get too hot. The Delco is 100% duty rated for the rated output, so it would be very close to the rated over time. Anyone that thinks they will get 270 or 280 amps for more than a few minutes is in for a big surprise. Avanti posted a charging curve for his 270 amp unit in another thread which showed the process over time, and it was very enlightening.

When you compare the Nations and Delco, you really are looking at about 165 amps average vs probably 290 amps average over time, so they are substantially different.

We are currently running two DC Power alternators in parallel on our Chevy, a 250 amp and a 280 amp. We have them limited by an Ample Power regulator so we have either 280 total amps or 180 total amps. At the 280 amp setting, at idle, we get a bit over 200 amps continuous, but the will go over 200 degrees F if idling over about 10 minutes. The Chevies have the alternators further back in the engine compartment so less cool air is not moving, so worse than a Sprinter or Promaster install, but safer in relation to water or road trash.

For those who haven't seen what the Delco looks like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XANYxoEF_HY

Look at the size of this monster. If it fell on your foot you'd be a cripple for life.

An interesting point ARV makes is that there is a constraint involving employing high output alternators that are not directly driven - you have to include a device to control the initial torque applied by the alternator to its belt drive to preclude belt squealing, belt wear or in the worst case, premature belt failure.

[mojoman]

There must be some effect to the front main bearing life by putting a large accessary load with these monster alternators. Be interesting to look at the wear pattern of the main bearing after some heavy use.

[MsNomer]

Originally Posted by mojoman

Best deal for a gas (petrol) Webasto unit is on ebay shipped from Germany.

I bought the gas Webasto from a US Webasto dealer. Paid about $100 more than European, but US tech support and service do have value.

[talktodean]

I heard Camping World is doing a private label Class B on Sprinter, perhaps that is the gas model you are talking about? Price point to be much less than the rest out there.

[talktodean]

Yes, I also heard that Class B was to have this inline generator, so it is probably true. Wow

[mlts22]

Originally Posted by talktodean

I heard Camping World is doing a private label Class B on Sprinter, perhaps that is the gas model you are talking about? Price point to be much less than the rest out there.

I am interested in this. Let me know if you find out more about a Freedom Elite type of "B", just because the CWs in my neck of the woods are pretty good.

[Davydd]

When you "heard" something provide a source. Otherwise it is smoke with no substance especially when everyone knows Sprinters are only sold as diesels in the United States.

[talktodean]

Perhaps until now, Sprinters only sold as diesels. Mercedes is working on, and ready to launch numerous new gas engines, as well as new van/sprinter body types, so there potentially is lots on the horizon.

[SiennaGuy]

After working in the computer industry for many years, I've learned that what you hear might be in development doesn't matter until it actually hits the shelves (or in this case, the dealerships). Lots of projects are abandoned while in development for all sorts of reasons.

[mojoman]

I "read" in several online articles that MB stated they would provide a gas powered version of their Worker Sprinter if it had enough demand from dealers and the public. Just had my service done on my Promaster at the dealer, $39. I take it in every 3K since its so cheap.

[avanti]

I have no data, but it wouldn't be amazing if Mercedes made a petrol-powered Sprinter available. They have done it before, and as these things go, the engineering involved is not heroic. It is certainly true that the economics of diesel are not what they used to be.

[talktodean]

I think it will happen. Yes, the engineer isn't heroic, and the economics favor gas over diesel. You hit it on the nail head.