Daddy needs a new cell phone - locked vs. unlocked?

[Mike]

Hi folks,
Looking for some technical expertise regarding SIM card swapping in GSM capable phones.
Here's my story.....
My old phone's battery won't hold a charge any more. It's probably cheaper and makes
more sense to get a new phone, than replace a battery in a clunker. Some of you might remember
my OCD episodes regarding frugal internet/phone service when traveling south to the USA.
After a bit of research, it appears I'll be switching from Bell to Rogers wireless, as they support
GSM850/1900 and 3G networking, which implies their phones are GSM capable and have the
SIM or Smart Card in them when you buy them. This also means they would work on the US AT&T
network, as they have the same frequency/bandwidth ranges as Rogers, and I'm assuming, also
use phones with SIM cards. So I should be able to use the same phone up here and down there
by switching the Canadian SIM card with an AT&T SIM card which I'll obtain at a later date.
The problem/question......
During my searches for network compatibility and SIM card usage, I kept seeing comments about
"locked" versus "unlocked" phones. I couldn't figure out what that meant. I'm guessing it has to do with
my wireless service provider preventing me from doing what I'd like to do, for some reason. Possibly
to keep me from easily switching to another GSM provider, although in Canada, Rogers is currently "it"
for the most part.
SO,
Do I need a special type of phone to do the SIM card swapping thing?
What should I look for in a phone? Ease of unlocking it? If I buy a locked one up here,
and have AT&T unlock it in the States, will it still work on Rogers when I get back?
Are most/all GSM phones easy to unlock? Where can I get it done?
Can anyone recommend a good phone for my planned usage? Make/model/price?
I'm currently on a pre-paid plan with Bell. Open to suggestions, though.

Thanks to all the techno-gurus in advance.

[renrut]

I use Rogers myself and bought an unlocked phone. The only thing locked means is, you can only use that phone on the provider's network that sold it. Unlocked means, all you need to do is change the SIM card and it will work on the other networks. Unlocking can be more of a pain than it's worth. You can see people on Ebay saying they will unlock the phone for a fee. It's just easier to get an unlocked one.

On another note, if you get an unlocked phone that was Cingular, AT&T or some other phone company, the phone usually comes with software and setting for the original provider. I have an unlocked Cingular phone and it works fine on Rogers. I've had no problems with it. It just has some Cingular specific things on it I just ignore. My new phone is an actual unlocked Rogers one.

The thing with GSM phone is the frequencies. There are 4 available and you need to make sure the phone you buy works on the frequencies the provider does. I bought a phone that has all 4 GSM frequencies on to make sure it will work anywhere there is a GSM provider.

As far as what type of phone to get, that depends on what you want it for. Having a Bluetooth capable phone is nice because you can use a hands-free ear device. You can get just a plain cell phone, ones with cameras, pocket computers, Blackberries and just about anything.

I have my old, unlocked Cingular phone still. It's an HP6515 Pocket Computer/cellphone/GPS all in one. It's a little bulky but it does just about anything I want. I put 8Gig of memory cards in it too so I can have all of North America maps for TomTom Navigator and Garmin on it at the same time. It still has lots of room for MP3's or movies. My new phone is an HP6955 which is the same basic phone but has built in wireless. It allows me to access any wireless hotspot and check email and stufff like that. I have an external wireless card for the the old one but I don't like carrying extra parts around for it. The problem is the new phone doesn't have the memory space my 6515 does. I can only get a 4Gig of memory card in it.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by renrut

I use Rogers myself and bought an unlocked phone. The only thing locked means is, you can only use that phone on the provider's network that sold it. Unlocked means, all you need to do is change the SIM card and it will work on the other networks. Unlocking can be more of a pain than it's worth. You can see people on Ebay saying they will unlock the phone for a fee. It's just easier to get an unlocked one.

So where did you get the unlocked phone? At Rogers? Sorry, if I'm not understanding. I want to get the right type
the first time. So it's easier to get one already unlocked? And Rogers doesn't care what kind, or who's phone you have
when you ask them for the SIM card? I would think they'd want to sell you a phone. I've always gone to Bell and bought
what they've suggested. So unlocked = swapping SIM cards = what I want to achieve. Thanks for clarifying that.
By unlocked, does that mean the user has access to the base security code? Not just the unlock code?

On another note, if you get an unlocked phone that was Cingular, AT&T or some other phone company, the phone usually comes with software and setting for the original provider. I have an unlocked Cingular phone and it works fine on Rogers. I've had no problems with it. It just has some Cingular specific things on it I just ignore. My new phone is an actual unlocked Rogers one.

The thing with GSM phone is the frequencies. There are 4 available and you need to make sure the phone you buy works on the frequencies the provider does. I bought a phone that has all 4 GSM frequencies on to make sure it will work anywhere there is a GSM provider.

I checked a website (can't remember the site name) that showed frequencies for Rogers 3G as 850/1900 and AT&T in the States is supposed to be the same. I'm likely to want to use these 2 for cell service, and they seem frequency compatible.
Is there a website that shows which manufacturers use which frequencies, or do I just ask when I go to whoever, what the phone uses? Or, could I ask at Rogers for an unlocked/unlockable phone which uses 3G 850/1900 frequency?

As far as what type of phone to get, that depends on what you want it for. Having a Bluetooth capable phone is nice because you can use a hands-free ear device. You can get just a plain cell phone, ones with cameras, pocket computers, Blackberries and just about anything.

I have my old, unlocked Cingular phone still. It's an HP6515 Pocket Computer/cellphone/GPS all in one. It's a little bulky but it does just about anything I want. I put 8Gig of memory cards in it too so I can have all of North America maps for TomTom Navigator and Garmin on it at the same time. It still has lots of room for MP3's or movies. My new phone is an HP6955 which is the same basic phone but has built in wireless. It allows me to access any wireless hotspot and check email and stufff like that. I have an external wireless card for the the old one but I don't like carrying extra parts around for it. The problem is the new phone doesn't have the memory space my 6515 does. I can only get a 4Gig of memory card in it.

I probably wouldn't need most of the extras you've added to your phone, as my netbook can do most of that, too.
Except maybe the hands free Bluetooth if/when Ontario passes the law about cell phone use in cars.
I don't think it's been passed yet, some legal wrangling I think is holding it up, but it probably will fairly soon.

So, I really just need to know where to get an unlocked phone that's 3G 850/1900 capable? Or do I even need 3G capable?
I'm not an e-Bay user and don't like online shopping. Are there any "real" stores that carry unlocked phones? Would Rogers?
Again, sorry for all the questions, but I'm hoping to get this right the first time.

Thanks for the answers and info. Much appreciated.

[renrut]

Originally Posted by Mike

So where did you get the unlocked phone? At Rogers? Sorry, if I'm not understanding. I want to get the right type
the first time. So it's easier to get one already unlocked? And Rogers doesn't care what kind, or who's phone you have
when you ask them for the SIM card? I would think they'd want to sell you a phone. I've always gone to Bell and bought
what they've suggested. So unlocked = swapping SIM cards = what I want to achieve. Thanks for clarifying that.
By unlocked, does that mean the user has access to the base security code? Not just the unlock code?

I bought my phones off Ebay. It's about the only place you will get unlocked ones. If the phone is unlocked, there is no code required so you won't have it. All you do it buy a SIM card for $25 (I think), have Rogers set it up and insert it into the phone. You can always call Rogers and see if their phones are unlocked or not.

I checked a website (can't remember the site name) that showed frequencies for Rogers 3G as 850/1900 and AT&T in the States is supposed to be the same. I'm likely to want to use these 2 for cell service, and they seem frequency compatible.
Is there a website that shows which manufacturers use which frequencies, or do I just ask when I go to whoever, what the phone uses? Or, could I ask at Rogers for an unlocked/unlockable phone which uses 3G 850/1900 frequency?

I would have to look to see if I can find a website that mentions the frequencies. I personally don't know right now. Rogers will tell you if you ask them. You can ask Rogers if their phones are unlocked or not. The SIM card is what identifies the phone as a Rogers one. You might be able to just insert an AT&T card and it might work but I don't know if Rogers would give you that information. GSM is the most common cell network. In Europe, it is very common. When I was in Afghanistan last summer, my phone worked there but I didn't make any calls.

I probably wouldn't need most of the extras you've added to your phone, as my netbook can do most of that, too.
Except maybe the hands free Bluetooth if/when Ontario passes the law about cell phone use in cars.
I don't think it's been passed yet, some legal wrangling I think is holding it up, but it probably will fairly soon.

As far as I know, the law has been passed and it is illegal to use a cell phone in your car now. I like the Bluetooth ear piece I have and use. It makes it nice because I can hear the phone actually ring with all the background noise in my car.

There is a lot on my phone but I use almost all the features. I have a lot of responsibilities at work and more passwords than I can count. I need something to keep things organized. The GPS is nice for finding addresses and I have all the Blue Charts for North America so I can go out in a boat and have all the charts of the waterways.

So, I really just need to know where to get an unlocked phone that's 3G 850/1900 capable? Or do I even need 3G capable?
I'm not an e-Bay user and don't like online shopping. Are there any "real" stores that carry unlocked phones? Would Rogers?
Again, sorry for all the questions, but I'm hoping to get this right the first time.

The 3G is more for data plans. If you don't plan on using the phone for Internet, you won't need it. I would call Rogers and talk to them. See what they have and can offer you. The big thing, don't go to Rogers in the malls. They get paid based on what they sell you. When I moved from Winnipeg to Ontario, the Rogers store in the mall said I had to get a new Ontario plan and they would set it all up for me. When we called Rogers on the phone, they just transferred my plan from Manitoba to Ontario with no fees.

Don't worry about asking questions. It's best to get as much information as you can.

[Mike]

I'm not familiar with, and probably won't be using Ebay. I just can't do the online shopping
thing yet. Personal preference.

I did actually send a note to Rogers contact us and hope I'll get a positive answer to my question
asking about how they handle unlocked/unlocking phones. Basically told them I needed a
multi-band GSM phone (although further investigation would appear to indicate most GSM
phones are 4 band 850/900/1800/1900 based on googling GSM phones), and why I wanted
it unlocked. I found some threads implying that some wireless providers will unlock their phones
after the contract periods expire, and they've recouped the discounts on the phone pricing through
the price gouging on the plans.

It looks like Tiger Direct sells unlocked phones, but it also appears they do have problems as
they don't seem to be factory directs, rather refurbs that may have leftover problems from their
original points of sale/origin. Some even suggested the original "wireless owners" are able to download
destructive code to them through the airwaves, when they see the unlocked phones reactivate.

So, I'm not too sure about where to get them. I found comments to the effect that
the best unlocked phone is one direct from it's manufacturer's factory that hasn't been the
property of a wireless provider yet. Not sure where to find one of those, but I've mailed
Motorola and told them the what and why of my story, as I've always liked their phones.

I understand the SIM card identifies the phone as Rogers, AT&T or whoever, and that's who gets
paid, or prepaid for it's usage. It also occurs to me that Rogers might not want to provide me
with an unlocked phone to use with a US SIM card, because they could make money off their
ridiculous roaming fees, if I used their SIM in the States on a roaming plan. So I expect this won't
be easy.

I tried to find whether Bill 118 was law. I saw it passed 3rd reading on April 22, 2009, so I guess
it's a law? I see it carries a fine of $60-500, but no demerit points. In all my requests for info from
Rogers and Motorola etc. I've added Bluetooth capability as a requirement, so I'm covered.

I hear you about the little mall kiosk places. I've never really trusted them much as they all seem
like kids on commissions to me. Some seem nice, but they are definitely trying to sell you.
I think there are some actual Rogers wireless stores around me, so I may give them a try.

BTW, here's the GSM frequency, and which providers have what website. Pretty useful, if accurate.
http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml
Maybe we should post it up in the Techie section on here???

Thanks for your thoughts and help.

[renrut]

Phones that have not been sold to a company are usually bought up by people in bulk and sold on Ebay and places like it. My one phone was brand new and still sealed in the factory box but it was also an Ebay item. It had a poor battery and needed to be charged every day. It seemed like the phone was a lemon and that's why the company couldn't get any cell providers to buy it.

Hopefully, Rogers will help you out. I know you can get phones for almost nothing but you have to sign up for a term of 1 to 3 years. I'm lucky because Rogers won't make me sign up for a fixed period of time. I've been with them since they were Cantel back in 1989 and they let me just get a plan but not be locked into it for years.

I would try to find a new phone and not used. The last one I bought I found on Kijiji. I knew the phone I wanted and searched for it. I lucked out because the phone I got was basically brand new, no scratches and came with the original factory box with all the accessories. All the other phones I've bought used were just the phone and a cable to charge it from my computer. I ended up having to buy chargers for them which can be a pain.

[Mike]

Rogers said they don't sell unlocked any more. At one point they did.
I'm checking Tiger Direct in the next day or two. They say their stuff is new,
but the website mentions "branding" logos on some of their models. Still,
it's probably worth a look.
My reply from Motorola was incomplete, and I've redirected my question to them.
Do they sell virgin unlocked GSM phones, and where can I get one?
They have an office in Markham which I may visit, if necessary, depending on their answer.

A local cell phone retailer suggested getting a cheapy down there, and using it when needed.
If my old CDMA phone wasn't obsoleting itself, I'd just get another one for down there.

One question for you, does Rogers care where you get your phone from? If I'm able to get
one, will they just sell me the SIM card and allow me to use their prepaid service?
Or will I get the cold shoulder because it's not a Rogers-bought phone?

[renrut]

Originally Posted by Mike

One question for you, does Rogers care where you get your phone from? If I'm able to get
one, will they just sell me the SIM card and allow me to use their prepaid service?
Or will I get the cold shoulder because it's not a Rogers-bought phone?

I've bought 3 phones now and have just changed the SIM card from one to another. For the first phone I bought, all I did was go to a Rogers store and paid for the SIM card. They set it all up with my phone number and information and I took it home and put it in my phone.

[Mike]

Thanks. I went to Tiger Direct and I've never seen more junk being sold as new in my life.
Many of their "new" phones on display had visible scratches and damage, as well as prior
wireless provider's logos, and peeling plastic everywhere.
They did appear to have some in the box stuff, but I had no desire to ask to see what was in them.

Thanks for the info.
I might have to wait until my next visit to the States and have a look around down there.
In the meantime, I'm looking at Ebay, and keeping my old Bell/CDMA phone charger plugged in to
keep it working.

Wish I knew more about Ebay and how to spot a junk dealer versus someone who sells
decent stuff.

[renrut]

If you want Mike, look on Ebay and post a link to anything you find or PM me and I will look at it. I've bought quite a bit from Ebay and could get something for you and you reimburse me for it. It's an option. To search for a phone, search Ebay for "GSM Unlocked". If you search for cellphones, you will get so much, it would take forever to go through them all. Also, when you do the initial search and get results, you can see extra options on the left of the screen that breaks down your search even more. I'm at work and Ebay's firewalled so I can't look from here.

The main things to look for on Ebay items are shipping costs, warantee/guarantee and the spec's on the phone. If you find one, look for it on Google for Reviews and Specifications. You want to have as much information as you can get on the item before buying it. Paying by Paypal is the best thing to do too. The purchase is guaranteed through Paypal but it can be a pain to resolve any problems. Read the sellers page fully. Some hide small but very important details on their pages. I've seen people selling cellular store display phones and making it sound like it was a real cellphone.

As far as Tiger Direct, I've never bought from them or gone to their store. They could have new phones that have old provider's name on them. My one phone has Cingular on it but it still works on Rogers. If they are "new", they should not be scratched or show signs of wear.

[Mike]

Thanks for the Ebay vetting offer. It might be a while based on the length of my learning curve.
They had phones that were the same models as shown on their website (Tiger Direct)
but they were clearly used and all looked pretty beaten up.

I'll have a look for some on Ebay, and see what I come up with.
If I do find something I'll send a link to it. That's a bit unnerving about some of the
scammers on Ebay.
I got a reply from Motorola, and they do sell new (probably obsoleted) unlocked GSM
phones online from a website at
www.store.motorola.com
but they only ship to the States. I'd need a US address to get one from them.
If I can figure a way around that, I may go that route. I wonder if US mail has a
rental POB with forwarding to anywhere in the world (or just Canada)?

[renrut]

Maybe someone in the forum from the US can help? I know I've asked a friend on another forum to buy things for me a few times because the seller would not ship out of the US. One item was a sewing serger for my wife. I got it directly from the factory but it was half the price of buying it in Canada. I drove to Kingston to a Singer store to check the model out and was shocked at the price. That's why I bought it on-line.

I just did a quick search on Ebay for "GSM unlocked new bluetooth". There's a lot to look at.

[Mike]

I actually mentioned it to another forumite who said they'd be able to help.
I'm probably going to go with a simple Moto something. I'll be browsing over
the weekend, and having a look at Ebay too.

Speaking of US/Canadian pricing differences, have a look at the last 2 entries in my
"Battery Isolator" thread. I couldn't believe they wanted to charge me over 3X the wholesale
cost for the part and $200 plus to remove the old one/install the new one. 2 hours to remove
4 screws/bolts, disconnect 4 wires, then reverse the process??? C'mon..... born at night,
but not last night!

[Mike]

Well, the latest and greatest (for me) is, I might go with Nokia, instead of Moto.
I emailed them and they apparently have 2 "flagship" stores (real stores with street
addresses, imagine that?). One is in NYC and the other is in Chicago. Anyone ever been
to either of them? The customer contact I emailed, said they sell "unlocked" phones at both.
So, once we get our EDLs (it's been 3 weeks since our interviews, no sign of them yet)
we'll probably head out towards Utah and AZ again (we like the areas, and their canyons),
with a quick (hopefully) side trip up the west coast of Lake Michigan, and grab one there.

Somewhere along the way, might detour to Elkhart IN, to see if I can get an alarm system installed.
Not high priority on this trip, but possible.
Then if we have time later on, we might take a trip to Big "D" (Ft. Worth, actually),
and see if we can pick up a new battery isolator.

If I've forgotten anything, please feel free to remind me.

[Mike]

Well, our Costco membership has finally paid dividends. Not at Costco, however.
A week or so ago, we joined Costco in Southern Ontario. Since joining,
we haven't seen a lot to make us say, "wow, am I ever glad we joined!!",
except for this......
I jokingly asked at the Costco cell phone booth girls, when they asked if
they could help me, whether they had any unlocked GSM cellphones.
The young lady said politely "no" but proceeded to give me the business
card of a nearby private cell phone repair and sales shop. In Niagara.
I've since been to them and purchased 2 used, unlocked, GSM Blackberries
for what I thought was a good price. We now are up and running (although
these things are far more complex than our previous cells) and enjoying Rogers
Wireless service, which I hope will be better than at least one of the other major
Canadian wireless providers, who I ended contact with today.

Not likely I'll be adding any new comments to this thread.
Hope it was helpful in some way.