Custom 2017 Hymer Aktiv on order

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by 4DMTNS

I honestly love reading through all these posts while I wait for my Aktiv! I *was* going to read a nice mystery novel tonight by the fire, while watching it snow here in Portland. But now I'm going to do some more *learning* about batteries and how to avoid a dead engine battery while boondocking in the middle of one of Oregon's no cell service areas! Ah yes, such an amazing Saturday night. ~ Chris

is the Aktiv on a ram promaster? if it is like the zion the systems are separate.

My zion has its own belt with the underhood generator. it is not linked to the vans starting battery or alternator

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

is the Aktiv on a ram promaster? if it is like the zion the systems are separate.

My zion has its own belt with the underhood generator. it is not linked to the vans starting battery or alternator

Of course it's on a Promaster.

The van's engine still drives the extra alternator. If I understand correctly, there are alterations required on the engine computer as well. I know that FitRV had some issues that caused their van to have to be towed in. They eventually got it all sorted, but the point is that it's more than an extra pully and belt to get it to work.

But you know the old fight when getting issues addressed as a warranty claim - the automaker says it's the upfitter's fault, and the upfitter says it's automaker's fault.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Of course it's on a Promaster.

The van's engine still drives the extra alternator. If I understand correctly, there are alterations required on the engine computer as well. I know that FitRV had some issues that caused their van to have to be towed in. They eventually got it all sorted, but the point is that it's more than an extra pully and belt to get it to work.

But you know the old fight when getting issues addressed as a warranty claim - the automaker says it's the upfitter's fault, and the upfitter says it's automaker's fault.

There is no indication in the Fit RV article that there is any necessity for reflashing the engine computer nor why it would be necessary since as far as I can tell, the computer isn't aware of the modification.

The modification created one issue which had nothing to do with the electrical performance. A coolant hose was routed too close to the auxiliary belt and opened up the coolant hose. It was reoriented and that issue was resolved.

https://www.thefitrv.com/rv-tips/our...-and-inverter/

You point regarding the obvious vulnerability of the alternator is well taken and there is no question that it warrants skid plate protection from high curbs, road debris etc. The Fit RV devised a nice prototype for this protection and the Promaster coach builders that employ this second alternator should definitely include this inexpensive protection or they are likely going to end up replacing a bunch of them.

https://www.thefitrv.com/rv-tips/pro...the-promaster/

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Of course it's on a Promaster.

The van's engine still drives the extra alternator. If I understand correctly, there are alterations required on the engine computer as well. I know that FitRV had some issues that caused their van to have to be towed in. They eventually got it all sorted, but the point is that it's more than an extra pully and belt to get it to work.

But you know the old fight when getting issues addressed as a warranty claim - the automaker says it's the upfitter's fault, and the upfitter says it's automaker's fault.

what as fit rv's issues? the zion extra alternator only charges the house battery and has no seperator. it has it's own belt. and its own balmar controller and has no hookup to the other battery system.

I know nothing about the aktiv

[4DMTNS]

Yes, the Aktiv is on a ProMaster 2500 chassis. It seems like the Aktiv is based on the UK Hymercar Ayers Rock which uses AGM batteries. https://www.hymercar.com/en/models/hymercar-camper-vans/models-on-a-fiat-chassis/hymercar-on-a-fiat-chassis-with-bathroom/equipment/standard-equipment.html

It seemed that the Lithium Ion batteries and VoltStart were a direct result of the Roadtrek acquisition.

I chose to stick with the standard 2-6V AGM batteries, optional 250W Solar setup, and no VoltStart. While I could see the pros of lithium batteries, I figured if I screwed up the AGM batteries while in a remote area I might be able to replace them and continue my trip rather than head home early and deal with a $250 warranty issue later.

As for testing and learning, I have the benefit of uncovered, oversize vehicle parking at work to do some easy, local testing with the solar system and daily house battery usage to run the refrigerator when the rig sits for my 12hr shift.

And, before going anywhere too far from town I plan on spending several overnights at Oregon State Parks within a 50 mile radius. (Our HOA doesn't like seeing these types of rigs parked in the neighborhood or driveway, so I'll be field testing right away rather than parking at an RV storage space.)

I'm aware of the modification the FitRV did to protect their alternator. I'll have to take a closer look when my rig arrives. The pictures I took of the undercarriage do not show much up front, as I was focusing on the gray water tank.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by 4DMTNS

I chose to stick with the standard 2-6V AGM batteries, optional 250W Solar setup, and no VoltStart. While I could see the pros of lithium batteries, I figured if I screwed up the AGM batteries while in a remote area I might be able to replace them and continue my trip rather than head home early and deal with a $250 warranty issue later.

I guess there are multiple supportable takes on this. However, in terms of dodging potential screw ups, (to which I'm no stranger), I came to the opposite conclusion:

AGMs have no management system that prevents either damaging levels of discharge or extended driving alternator overcharging. Further, battery failure is unlikely to occur prior to the coach builder's one year AGM warranty. Even if the failure occurs within the warranty period, you won't get any reimbursement from the builder if you don't effect the replacement at one of their dealers or get some pre-approval for buying them elsewhere.

By comparison, in terms of avoiding inadvertent battery damage leaving you without coach amenities in the middle of nowhere, I think lithiums are a better choice for insuring against this. They have an incorporated battery management system that prevents damaging levels of discharge and a specialized alternator voltage regulator that controls charge rates. Employing the Voltstart feature precludes the batteries from ever even reaching the point of protective shutdown. Additionally, you get the advantage of a 6 year unlimited warranty on lithium batteries. It's certainly more expensive than the AGM alternative, but IMO, it's a lot more bullet proof, or in my case, idiot proof.

[4DMTNS]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

AGMs have no management system that prevents either damaging levels of discharge or extended driving alternator overcharging. / if you don't effect the replacement at one of their dealers or get some pre-approval for buying them elsewhere. / By comparison, in terms of avoiding inadvertent battery damage leaving you without coach amenities in the middle of nowhere, I think lithiums are a better choice for insuring against this.

I actually went through your thought processes for the lithium advantages first, but ultimately felt the $6k cost for the lithium batteries and VoltStart option, along with the distance to my nearest local Hymer and/or Roadtrek dealers was not reasonable for me.

Grandpa was an automotive mechanic and instilled good skills in all us gals, so I am hoping I can learn my way around these systems and make him proud. He taught me to read the manual, do safety checks and planned maintenance on all my vehicles. Given the complexity of all the new systems to learn with an RV ... I went with his guiding KISS principle. $6k buys a lot of gas, and new AGM batteries if I really get it wrong! 😖

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I guess there are multiple supportable takes on this. However, in terms of dodging potential screw ups, (to which I'm no stranger), I came to the opposite conclusion:

AGMs have no management system that prevents either damaging levels of discharge or extended driving alternator overcharging. Further, battery failure is unlikely to occur prior to the coach builder's one year AGM warranty. Even if the failure occurs within the warranty period, you won't get any reimbursement from the builder if you don't effect the replacement at one of their dealers or get some pre-approval for buying them elsewhere.

By comparison, in terms of avoiding inadvertent battery damage leaving you without coach amenities in the middle of nowhere, I think lithiums are a better choice for insuring against this. They have an incorporated battery management system that prevents damaging levels of discharge and a specialized alternator voltage regulator that controls charge rates. Employing the Voltstart feature precludes the batteries from ever even reaching the point of protective shutdown. Additionally, you get the advantage of a 6 year unlimited warranty on lithium batteries. It's certainly more expensive than the AGM alternative, but IMO, it's a lot more bullet proof, or in my case, idiot proof.

Technically, Voltstart does not prevent the batteries from shutting down at 20% state of charge but the BMS does insure that they do not discharge below that point and it stops discharge at that point. If the Voltstart system is working properly all of the engine run cycles occur well above the 20% state of charge condition and also below the 100% state of charge condition. After the Voltstart cycle limit is reached, the battery modules continue to discharge down to 20% and the BMS takes each module offline at that point.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by 4DMTNS

I actually went through your thought processes for the lithium advantages first, but ultimately felt the $6k cost for the lithium batteries and VoltStart option, along with the distance to my nearest local Hymer and/or Roadtrek dealers was not reasonable for me.

Grandpa was an automotive mechanic and instilled good skills in all us gals, so I am hoping I can learn my way around these systems and make him proud. He taught me to read the manual, do safety checks and planned maintenance on all my vehicles. Given the complexity of all the new systems to learn with an RV ... I went with his guiding KISS principle. $6k buys a lot of gas, and new AGM batteries if I really get it wrong! 😖

LOL, I wish the spread was only 6k. With the 800ah array and a Voltstart, it cost near 10k and your point that well managed AGMs would be more cost effective in the long run is well taken. But that said, don't underestimate the cost of replacing AGM dead soldiers with quality replacements. Four Lifeline AGMs will set you back around $1200.

i wonder why nobody has developed a BMS for AGMs.

[gerrym51]

cruising 7388. do you have ecotreks?

Must say when you are talking about replacements-whenever-within warranty or out of warranty your talking about Roadtrek repmacements. Who knows how much they will be charging for a replacement one.

you will not be able to use anyone else's lithiums

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Of course it's on a Promaster.
But you know the old fight when getting issues addressed as a warranty claim - the automaker says it's the upfitter's fault, and the upfitter says it's automaker's fault.

The FitRV couple are providing a great service for Winnebago in giving the company a real-world customer relationship / alliance they can use to test customer needs and wants. Over the past three years the Travato and ERA products have been constantly updated and their technology has improved greatly.

Having owned two versions of their products, what is your verdict in the WGO Class B line? Do you think Russ and WGO will offer a generator-free option soon from the factory or technology partner?

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

cruising 7388. do you have ecotreks?

Must say when you are talking about replacements-whenever-within warranty or out of warranty your talking about Roadtrek repmacements. Who knows how much they will be charging for a replacement one.

you will not be able to use anyone else's lithiums

Yes, it's a 210 with 800ah/underhood gen/solar/Voltstart but with propane support for heat and stove.

When Roadtrek had a five year warranty, their AGMs were covered for the full five years. The current six year warranty covers lithiums but they reduced the AGM coverage to one year.

Third party replacement of RT AGM batteries under warranty is feasible although it probably requires factory approval if not done at one of their dealers. That said, I doubt they would approve reimbursement for top tier replacements like Concord Lifelines et al.

Since the lithium batteries have physically incorporated management systems, replacement would probably have to accomplished by a dealer or at the factory.

I don't know about other builders, but Roadtrek doesn't treat their lithium batteries like appliances which typically have an initial warranty period of their own (e.g. refrigerator) that has to run before any existing builder warranty takes over. I think the same repair/replacement policy applies to the underhood generator, the Voltstart and the inverter.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

The FitRV couple are providing a great service for Winnebago in giving the company a real-world customer relationship / alliance they can use to test customer needs and wants. Over the past three years the Travato and ERA products have been constantly updated and their technology has improved greatly.

Having owned two versions of their products, what is your verdict in the WGO Class B line? Do you think Russ and WGO will offer a generator-free option soon from the factory or technology partner?

Knowing how WGO operates, I would be very surprised for them to offer anything that isn't absolutely bullet proof. My perception in talking with them over the summer was that they were interested in the 2nd alternator, but it wasn't ready for prime time yet. Additionally, they pride themselves on being a value producer and are price sensitive. For them to increase content in their products, it has to come in at a price unless there is crazy demand for such an addition.

The Lithonics people told me that they have a contract to provide batteries to WGO. What they didn't elaborate on was for which RV it was going in. My assumption is that it's the short Sprinter "adventure" concept RV that was shown last fall. But I don't know for sure - but they did present it as having a lithium battery, and NONE of their motorhomes boast that feature - not even the high $ Grand Tour.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

::

Having owned two versions of their products, what is your verdict in the WGO Class B line? Do you think Russ and WGO will offer a generator-free option soon from the factory or technology partner?

The last quotation I read from WGO is that they will not be offering underhood generator anytime soon.


For good reasons I believe:

1. The high A underhood generator is most useful when the engine speed is above idling. Otherwise it will not provide enough juice to charge the battery in a timely manner.

2. The high A underhood generator is most useful when charging a battery that can take the high A. ie they are best suited for lithium batteries. WGO is in no hurry to move to lithium.

Conclusion: this underhood generator is a great concept, but it is not a simple answer to our energy quests. And it definitely is not a silver bullet.

[BobB]

It will be interesting to watch WGO. My impression is they are not the "pace car" but still like to be in the front of the pack, where the industry is going. IMO.

So, additional alternator, will take time; let others work out the kinks.

Lithiums will probably show up in the Bs first (smaller banks than As), but, again, after others work out the kinks.

But in the Era, we now see multi-plex wiring (like PW), so maybe that will trickle down.

More compressor fridges (waiting for the K) - maybe as an option, since the Truma still needs propane. Makes sense for more compressor fridges - K has them, Paseo and, I think, all the Eras have them - simplifies the supply line.

Just my thoughts.

[booster]

Originally Posted by BBQ

The last quotation I read from WGO is that they will not be offering underhood generator anytime soon.


For good reasons I believe:

1. The high A underhood generator is most useful when the engine speed is above idling. Otherwise it will not provide enough juice to charge the battery in a timely manner.

2. The high A underhood generator is most useful when charging a battery that can take the high A. ie they are best suited for lithium batteries. WGO is in no hurry to move to lithium.

Conclusion: this underhood generator is a great concept, but it is not a simple answer to our energy quests. And it definitely is not a silver bullet.

I would agree, for the most part.

The idling is an issue, as output is lower than driving, and it drops more, besides, from excess heat. We have heard of the "death spiral" of Roadtreks and even ARVs before they changed to the megabuck alternator related to killing the batteries while trying to run the AC at idle. I think the jury is still out on how all the various vehicles will handle repeated long term cyclic idling runs. This would include the engine and alternator related stuff.

Lithium is well suited for the big charging alternators due to it's high acceptance rates for one thing, but big bank (over 400ah) of AGM can also accept more than the big alternators will continuously put out in most cases. The difference is that the AGM will only accept that much up until they are about 70% full, and then they slow down, a bunch toward the end of the charging. You can recover capacity quickly, but not get the necessary occasional full charge quickly.

Not a silver bullet to be sure, but maybe getting close with lithium. Still some unknowns hanging out there, IMO. But, can be very useful if your use patterns are such that fast, particularly partial, recharges are needed to continue being off grid. This would apply to lithium and larger bank AGM battery banks.

I think that the very fast adoption of compressor frigs, and now making them substantially larger, could turn out to be a big factor in the large alternator world. If you need, every day, 75ah just to run your frig, compared to nearly 0ah with a 3 way, your power systems have a lot more to deal with, plus you don't have a choice because that is not an optional use of of power that you can go without (at least for most of us). You have to replace it if you use it, eventually, with any bank size.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by BBQ

1. The high A underhood generator is most useful when the engine speed is above idling. Otherwise it will not provide enough juice to charge the battery in a timely manner.

2. The high A underhood generator is most useful when charging a battery that can take the high A. ie they are best suited for lithium batteries. WGO is in no hurry to move to lithium.

My experience does not support either of these claims.

1) Our Nations' 270 amp alternator on our Sprinter provides very close to the advertised 200 amps at idle. (Not that we idle very often.)

2) Our large-ish (440Ah) AGM bank does very well at accepting current from the alternator. It is true that getting to 100% can be tedious, but that is what solar is for. An hour's driving will typically easily replace a night's worth of usage.

Lithium is great. But until I don't have to think so hard about keeping it healthy and safe, I am glad I decided to stick with AGM for now. I am also extremely happy to have a second alternator.

[BBQ]

.

WGO wants to remain the price leader.

So far their strategy is winning; they are also the volume leader.

They will only offer underhood generator and lithium if they can remain the price leader. The day will come. Who knows, it might even come in 2017.

[Bud]

"this underhood generator is a great concept, but it is not a simple answer to our energy quests."

It sure is for me, and it is not 'high' A! And I agree with those that think LOUD or quiet Onan dedicated engines will Not rule with B's that need A/C without shore power, rather ethings.

That day is Now, except that ARV's costs to make it happen relatively well are high. Then there is Roadtrek with some real downsides. With the Fit RV folks WG recognized an opportunity to learn and to spend $'s to ensure happy customers making it happen.

They will go for it with B's is my Super Wild-ass Guess, an exceptional opportunity in the RV world for WGO in the last how many decades. No, maybe slide-outs, instant hot water, .........? Nothing really cool about those compared to ..........

Bud

[BBQ]

.


LOL