Counter question to selling your RV at 9 years....

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

I've only had the vehicle since May 2017.

Are you suggesting that I add up all the expenses and divide by the total miles I've driven

All vehicles require Insurance, fuel, registration, maintenance, repairs.....
Plus, I made a significant number of upgrades for the purpose of safely operating the vehicle... would you include all of this ..

What about the initial purchase price and sales tax...??

Due to the short ownership that number would be horribly skewed and extremely high...

Do you see what I mean???

That's not a normal years expense....

Well, yes. That's exactly what I mean. And if you decide to trade that coach off in that first year, you've accurately assessed what that coach cost you to own. There's two ways to look at it; cost per mile, and/or cost per annum over the time you own it.

That is really the ONLY valid way to compare whether changing vehicles makes financial sense... and even if you're not planning on trading, it's a good tool for understanding what owning your B-van costs you in real terms.

All that said, of course owning a B-van is a luxury purchase for most folks, and the very purchase defies logic, from a wealth conservation standpoint. However from a lifestyle appreciation standpoint there's LOTS of reasons to own one. This kind of approach to the fiscal end of ownership precludes you from entering the "look how much money I'll save if I just do this" kind of fantasy we read about so much in places like this.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by hepcat

Well, yes. That's exactly what I mean. And if you decide to trade that coach off in that first year, you've accurately assessed what that coach cost you to own. There's two ways to look at it; cost per mile, and/or cost per annum over the time you own it.

That is really the ONLY valid way to compare whether changing vehicles makes financial sense... and even if you're not planning on trading, it's a good tool for understanding what owning your B-van costs you in real terms.

All that said, of course owning a B-van is a luxury purchase for most folks, and the very purchase defies logic, from a wealth conservation standpoint. However from a lifestyle appreciation standpoint there's LOTS of reasons to own one. This kind of approach to the fiscal end of ownership precludes you from entering the "look how much money I'll save if I just do this" kind of fantasy we read about so much in places like this.

It is a luxury purchase.....no one "needs" a Class B...

The longer I keep the vehicle and use it the more VALUE I will receive.

Do you disagree with that?

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by hepcat

All that said, of course owning a B-van is a luxury purchase for most folks, and the very purchase defies logic, from a wealth conservation standpoint. However from a lifestyle appreciation standpoint there's LOTS of reasons to own one. This kind of approach to the fiscal end of ownership precludes you from entering the "look how much money I'll save if I just do this" kind of fantasy we read about so much in places like this.

This wealth conservation conundrum was resolved for me many decades ago when I was a kid. My mother regularly took me with her for grocery shopping. On one occasion she examined some peaches and asked the produce guy if the peaches would keep. He looked up at her and asked: Lady, are you buying these peaches to eat or to keep?

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

It is a luxury purchase.....no one "needs" a Class B...

The longer I keep the vehicle and use it the more VALUE I will receive.

Do you disagree with that?

"Value" is subjective. You may buy a new $200k Airstream B-van, keep it a year, lose $100k and still believe it to be a great value; and that's great... just as long as you KNOW you lost $100k on it in a year.

The numbers are the numbers.

A motorhome is a depreciable asset. It is NOT an investment; presuming that you agree with the definition of an "investment" as something you hope will increase your wealth. For most of the 20th century, owning a private home was perceived as an "investment." Whether it remains so depends on many factors today. That doesn't stop people from buying McMansions in some markets that are likely not to be an "investment" as they derive "value" from their purchase even though they may lose money on it long-term. And again, that's great as long as they understand that they'll likely lose money on it.

I am not wealthy. My 1960, five bedroom, three bath, brick ranch house with attached two-car garage on 1/3 acre cost me $135k in 2002. It might be worth $200k today. Maybe. In another market, it'd be a million dollar house. I'm also retired on a relatively modest pension. Talking about buying a motorhome for $130k and losing $50k to depreciation isn't even up for consideration. That would essentially be losing 1/6th of my total net wealth in a year or two. So, I'm not poor by any stretch of the imagination, but neither am I wealthy enough to be able to not be responsible about the preservation of what little wealth I do have.

My posts are about taking the emotion and desire out of purchasing a coach and replacing that, at least initially, with as accurate a numbers analysis as I can provide. THEN I decide how I can indulge my emotions in that larger picture.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by hepcat

It is NOT an investment; presuming that you agree with the definition of an "investment" as something you hope will increase your wealth.

On the box of my Lionel train set (which my parents could not afford when they bought it for me in 1957) is the slogan "A Lifetime Investment in Happiness." So it has proven to be.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by hepcat

"Value" is subjective. You may buy a new $200k Airstream B-van, keep it a year, lose $100k and still believe it to be a great value; and that's great... just as long as you KNOW you lost $100k on it in a year.

The numbers are the numbers.

A motorhome is a depreciable asset. It is NOT an investment; presuming that you agree with the definition of an "investment" as something you hope will increase your wealth. For most of the 20th century, owning a private home was perceived as an "investment." Whether it remains so depends on many factors today. That doesn't stop people from buying McMansions in some markets that are likely not to be an "investment" as they derive "value" from their purchase even though they may lose money on it long-term. And again, that's great as long as they understand that they'll likely lose money on it.

I am not wealthy. My 1960, five bedroom, three bath, brick ranch house with attached two-car garage on 1/3 acre cost me $135k in 2002. It might be worth $200k today. Maybe. In another market, it'd be a million dollar house. I'm also retired on a relatively modest pension. Talking about buying a motorhome for $130k and losing $50k to depreciation isn't even up for consideration. That would essentially be losing 1/6th of my total net wealth in a year or two. So, I'm not poor by any stretch of the imagination, but neither am I wealthy enough to be able to not be responsible about the preservation of what little wealth I do have.

My posts are about taking the emotion and desire out of purchasing a coach and replacing that, at least initially, with as accurate a numbers analysis as I can provide. THEN I decide how I can indulge my emotions in that larger picture.

YES.... even in California you can "lose money" on real estate.... BUT, it usually doesn't happen.

Buying my house when I did was the greatest single investment ever.
The RV is strictly for fun.

I completely agree with you... enjoy what you have... no one can live forever, you might as well enjoy the time.

We DO NOT live in a McMansion... far from it. modest house.

Let me tell you something and it's not something original... don't purchase more house than you need... ever.

It may sound "cool" to have a really large house, but, 5 bedrooms, 3 baths, loads of square feet is just more to maintain, heat and cool.

While I can dream about all that extra space and I'm sure it's nice, I can go outside and have plenty of space..

It's all about managing resources.

[Bud]

Sometime in the 1980's my neighbor across the street put his house up for sale. He loved the house a lot. He purchased another home, and then moved out of state a few years later.

Years later, maybe 2010 or so, he knocked on my door. He had moved back was trying to make an offer on the house, but it was not for sale. The owner did not want to even consider an offer.

The point of the story is that his financial consultant explained with numbers as some have said, that his financial circumstances were such that he would be better off with a noticeably more expensive house that he did not need. He purchased the noticeably more expensive house. Another way to think about it is that the present house at the time had become a too expensive luxury.

Is there any reason the buy more rv than you need and costs more? I can't think of any financial reason. The only reason is the usual one - more, better... emotion/feelings.

Bud

[jaak1993]

Originally Posted by Bud

Sometime in the 1980's my neighbor across the street put his house up for sale. He loved the house a lot. He purchased another home, and then moved out of state a few years later.

Years later, maybe 2010 or so, he knocked on my door. He had moved back was trying to make an offer on the house, but it was not for sale. The owner did not want to even consider an offer.

The point of the story is that his financial consultant explained with numbers as some have said, that his financial circumstances were such that he would be better off with a noticeably more expensive house that he did not need. He purchased the noticeably more expensive house. Another way to think about it is that the present house at the time had become a too expensive luxury.

Is there any reason the buy more rv than you need and costs more? I can't think of any financial reason. The only reason is the usual one - more, better... emotion/feelings.

Bud

A couple points occur to me. First, we humans are lousy predictors of our future happiness based on our choices. Second, this thread has arrived at the concept that we are in essence trying to buy improved happiness through ownership of a b-van, and the essential equation is how much additional happiness will I get per additional dollar invested. Will I be twice as happy with twice the investment. A bevy of researchers have failed to find such a correlation. Third, for some being frugal is their only chance to own a B, but for most owners there are considerable options and a usually unaddressed question is what could I do with the money saved by being uber-frugal that could add to my happiness. For instance, my wife and I lived frugally while saving money to give to the kids, it never occurred to us that money wouldn't be particularly helpful to them if they inherited it in their 60's.

While knowing exactly what the van costs us is helpful, it is less so if we don't do this for all our other expenditures. Of course, doing that would drain the life out of everything and takes us back to the first point.

[Oliver2017]

Originally Posted by jaak1993

the essential equation is how much additional happiness will I get per additional dollar invested.

Love your deep thinking! My fear is how much happiness will I lose if the dollars invested are on a Class B that for whatever reason(s) doesn't bring me enough joy.

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

...
I completely agree with you... enjoy what you have... no one can live forever, you might as well enjoy the time.

My ONLY concern is that the possiblity exists of outliving my resources, which is why I try to watch closely how I use them, and STILL enjoy the time.

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

We DO NOT live in a McMansion... far from it. modest house.

It may sound "cool" to have a really large house, but, 5 bedrooms, 3 baths, loads of square feet is just more to maintain, heat and cool.

Let me be clear; MY five bedrooms and three baths are contained in 1700 square feet with a full, partially finished basement where one of the baths and two of the bedrooms reside. The ONLY thing that is over-the-top luxurious about this particular house is that in 1960, the original owners had marble window sills installed and two of the closets are cedar lined. THAT is pretty cool... but other than that, it's just another 1700 sq. ft. ranch house.

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

It's all about managing resources.

My point exactly!

[Bud]

"My ONLY concern is that the possiblity exists of outliving my resources, which is why I try to watch closely how I use them, and STILL enjoy the time."

If you have not considered a lifetime annuity, you might. There are applications with some folks. It is not always best to choose a lump sum vs pension. There are applications for both.

Bud

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Bud

"My ONLY concern is that the possiblity exists of outliving my resources, which is why I try to watch closely how I use them, and STILL enjoy the time."

If you have not considered a lifetime annuity, you might. There are applications with some folks. It is not always best to choose a lump sum vs pension. There are applications for both.

Bud

Bud,

I retired early in 2011.... I learned something from my father in law..who retired at 55... I was 59... My Dad never retired, at 70 he had medical issues and wound up an invalid for the last eight years of his life, couldn't eat, speak or anything else... terrible outcome......

When I saw all this, I decided I'm going to retire early...by 62 no later.....I was extremely fortunate to be able to retire early......

YES.... I have a lifetime guaranteed annuity for myself and my spouse...she will get my benefits if I pass before she does...and of course my social security as well... plus, we have rental property investmets...

All of this is great but anything can happen....so we also have long term care insurance..I highly recommend this to people as well..... medical bills can wipe out anyone and long term care is NOT covered by Medicare.....

I'm 66 and doing fine... but, you know what..one of my best friends is dying of cancer right now and she's 66...

You just never know...

We looked for Class B's on an off for 10 years... had a cute teardrop trailer before the
Class B...

I wanted something fairly new with safety features and in reasonable condition...this one seemed to fit.....

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by Bud

If you have not considered a lifetime annuity, you might. There are applications with some folks. It is not always best to choose a lump sum vs pension. There are applications for both.

Bud

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

Bud,

I retired early in 2011.... I learned something from my father in law..who retired at 55... I was 59...

YES.... I have a lifetime guaranteed annuity for myself and my spouse...she will get my benefits if I pass before she does...and of course my social security as well... plus, we have rental property investmets...

All of this is great but anything can happen....so we also have long term care insurance..I highly recommend this to people as well..... medical bills can wipe out anyone and long term care is NOT covered by Medicare.....

Our situations, at least on the surface, appear to not be dissimilar. I retired at 55 with a mid-west sized PERS retirement (as differentiated from an east or west-coast sized retirement.) I too have income property; a couple of apartment buildings. I'm 63 and my wife is still a working professional. Many of our mortgages (and other loans) will be retired in the next five years. We also have long-term care insurance and are both still relatively healthy.

My concern is the volatility of the economy and the cost of goods and services. Five years ago I used to be able to replace a water heater for $400, labor included. Today that same event runs closer to $1000, a significant increase. My pension has NOT increased, nor has the rental market gained the ability to generate additional income. Costs of new luxury goods (like motorhomes and boats) has also skyrocketed, pushing used values higher and will likely continue to do so, at least for the foreseeable future; and yet housing prices, at least in our area, seem to have stalled along with housing sales. It's a tough time to try to divine our economic future.

There's an old Chinese curse that says: "May you live in interesting times." We do live in interesting times, I fear.

In any event, my concerns for managing the little wealth I've managed to <mostly> acquire (with mortgages) aren't so much the steady income, but the uncertainty of future costs and expenses against that relatively fixed income; hence my almost militant need to know the actual cost of ownership over time of my "luxury goods."

[Monica998]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1
So... you've decided to keep your RV for the long term and run until the wheels fall off....
When is it time to sell for safety considerations??????
Or ... just keep driving and repairing it forever?????????
What do you think????

Actually just a few people can own one RV for over 30~40 years. During this period, someone will change the RVs as the economy condition goes well; some will buy another one in order to suitable for the different camp situations; and some maybe will buy it since they have been retired.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Monica998

Actually just a few people can own one RV for over 30~40 years. During this period, someone will change the RVs as the economy condition goes well; some will buy another one in order to suitable for the different camp situations; and some maybe will buy it since they have been retired.

I won't live long enough to have my RV for 30 years.....I understand.

[Monica998]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

I won't live long enough to have my RV for 30 years.....I understand.

Actually I don't mean that. Maybe you can, who knows.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Monica998

Actually I don't mean that. Maybe you can, who knows.

I'm 66..... guess you never know..... BUT, I'm not counting on it.....

It's all a matter of luck.

[Monica998]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

I'm 66..... guess you never know..... BUT, I'm not counting on it.....
It's all a matter of luck.

You're still young. Most of the people can live for 90~over 100 years old because of the good medical conditions. But in your daily life, try to keep your diet and do some exercises everyday which maybe can keep your body in good healthy.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

YES.... even in California you can "lose money" on real estate.... BUT, it usually doesn't happen.


. . .

In California, you lose money on your RV even if it can hold its value.
The annual fee will see to that.

[MsNomer]

We tend to be keep-it-til-it-falls-apart vehicle owners. When I was buying my van at age 67, I lamented that this would be the first one I wouldn't live long enough to wear out, but just in case, I built everything to be removable. Ha. It's racking up >25,000 miles/year with no signs of slowing that down and neither are we.