Countdown to new Travato GL

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I know of only one Promaster converted with the VB air suspension. I suspect they got that for free as is the norm for the more professional reviews and promotion. It comes at a steep price - around $7500. If you want the leveling system that works with it, it's another $7k or so. I like the idea, but I'd rather keep my money that get the modest benefit of these upgrades.

As is, the Promaster has excellent ride and handling characteristics. It drives like a big old minivan and is not very sensitive to the turbulence behind trucks or crosswinds - it's not immune though, just the behaviours aren't anything that would give you white knuckles.

Yes, many do Timbrens or Sumos. I've done both - they are about the same, so go with whatever is cheapest. There really are only a few benefits to this ~$300 upgrade. First, you eliminate joust when you go over uneven pavements like sloped entranceways or anything that will induce side-to-side motion of the van body. Second, you can take corners a little faster as body roll is reduced in that regard too. Third, since you are basically riding on these stops, it lifts the rear about 1 to 1.5 inches, giving more clearance on all but the rear axle. Theoretically, this device should have the potential to induce more vibration and harshness into the cabin. I've found that it does not. Probably due to the weight of a van with the conversion in it (~2,000 lbs).

Oops, I forgot that you have been running a Travato for a while and are familiar with its handling.

Apparently there is some synergy between the VB suspension and the leveling system. But after reading the FIT RV evaluation of the VB modification, it does seem like a lot of money for a pretty modest improvement. But I'd go for the E&P levelers in a heartbeat because I think it significantly improves the opportunity for acceptable parking spots, particularly in rain prone areas where the parking lots seem to have a lot of pitch.

I'm not well schooled in physics, but at highway speeds I don't understand why some body roll a bad thing. Doesn't it absorb g force and doesn't reducing or eliminating it just displace that force to the suspension and tires?

I notice that the Volta warranty for their batteries is 8 years but what is the warranty for the rest of the system, i.e. the inverter and alternator?

[wincrasher]

They say 3 years - some folks have called Volta. I'll know for certain when I get the paperwork with my van. WGO is pretty good about documentation.

[bobojay]

My take on the extra steps at the end of assembly is about the same as wincrasher's. Extra checks. Who knows if it's a Volta person or not. I suspect right now that it is. Since GNR is coming up in a coupe weeks, we may hear more on this as a bunch of owners will be touring the plant and asking question of the workers there. (having lunch with them on WGO's dime)

We've had our new Travato K now for about 6 weeks. A few minor teething issues as all new RVs have, but otherwise going well so far the first 2k miles.
The rear Sumos in my book are well worth it as they are on a Sprinter. On the Travato they bring the rear end back up to what it was pre upfit, as well as the other advantages with jounce and lean. They are a piece of cake to install. I haven't yet decided on the fronts, but I suspect that will get done also later.
And what Ron said about the PM handling and driving like a big minivan hits the mark. (I've driven all 3 of the European designed vans we have available to us now with loads on them and my personal favorite is the Transit w/Ecoboost or diesel, but that's another subject)

[wincrasher]

I wish I could have gotten my GL delivered to me at GNR - that would have been fun. I'm not really a rally type of guy though, but the WinnieB crowd is about 20 years younger than the rest of the WGO family, and they definately like to party. The factory tour is interesting, but once you've done it, not sure I'd get much out of going again.

Prepare for heat and humidity!

I strongly recommend doing the museum tour - it's very interesting.

[Carolp495]

Thanks wincrasher for the information.
Best of luck with your GL, and wishing you many happy adventures.

[bobojay]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I wish I could have gotten my GL delivered to me at GNR - that would have been fun. I'm not really a rally type of guy though, but the WinnieB crowd is about 20 years younger than the rest of the WGO family, and they definately like to party. The factory tour is interesting, but once you've done it, not sure I'd get much out of going again.

Prepare for heat and humidity!

I strongly recommend doing the museum tour - it's very interesting.

X2 on the partying and younger crowd...we'd go more often, but it's just too dang HOT! up there in July, not to mention the unpredictable weather

[Carolp495]

We had a 2016 K, and we traded for a 2016 Roadtrek CS Adventurous with the full lithium solar package. We travel with two cats and we live in Florida and it is always hot, so the solar was what we needed, and it turned out to be so much more then we ever imagined. You are going to absolutely LOVE IT!!!!
We are going back with the Travato KL, because the Travato is easier to drive, and also because the Travato group is beyond AWESOME and so much fun to be with, and that is what it is all about.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

They say 3 years - some folks have called Volta. I'll know for certain when I get the paperwork with my van. WGO is pretty good about documentation.

This is what Lichtsinn said with regard to the Volta system:

The batteries, Converter/inverter and alternator/regulator are all supplied by Volta.

The batteries are warrantied by WGO for eight years.

The converter/inverter and alternator are warrantied by WGO for just one year.

So, assuming this is accurate, what remains to be determined is if Volta on their own initiative will warranty these components beyond the one year period provided by WGO, and if so, for how long and where the repair or replacement would be accomplished. In these hi power systems, while the batteries and alternator seem to be pretty bullet proof, the converter/inverters are regularly pushed pedal to the metal and statistically are probably more prone to failure than the battery or alternator.

[booster]

I wouldn't be very worried about the charger, inverter, DC to DC, etc, as they appear to be made by Sensata, which is really Magnum. They make really good stuff. I would guess that some of the controls and alternator are probably the most vulnerable, but that is just a guess.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

I wouldn't be very worried about the charger, inverter, DC to DC, etc, as they appear to be made by Sensata, which is really Magnum. They make really good stuff. I would guess that some of the controls and alternator are probably the most vulnerable, but that is just a guess.

I have no data to support it but my guess would be the opposite. Alternators have gone through decades of refinement for operating in the volatile environment they experience and seem to go easily a 100k miles without issues. Damage from battery separation seems to be pretty much history as current computers sense this condition so quickly that field current shuts off fast enough prevent diodes from exceeding their PIV. Additionally, with a sophisticated regulator like a Balmar or similar, temperature sensing makes overheating damage unlikely.

Inverters seem invariably located in areas with less than desirable ventilation and with current owner demands, seem to be regularly pushed to their limits in addition to enduring brief periods of substantial overload from compressors without soft start. Unlike the alternator, they have narrower safe temperature tolerances both hot and, surprisingly, cold. Unless they incorporate mil-spec devices, temperatures below 0 F may prevent them from even powering up. I experienced just that with a Xantrex Prosine 2.0.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I have no data to support it but my guess would be the opposite. Alternators have gone through decades of refinement for operating in the volatile environment they experience and seem to go easily a 100k miles without issues. Damage from battery separation seems to be pretty much history as current computers sense this condition so quickly that field current shuts off fast enough prevent diodes from exceeding their PIV. Additionally, with a sophisticated regulator like a Balmar or similar, temperature sensing makes overheating damage unlikely.

Inverters seem invariably located in areas with less than desirable ventilation and with current owner demands, seem to be regularly pushed to their limits in addition to enduring brief periods of substantial overload from compressors without soft start. Unlike the alternator, they have narrower safe temperature tolerances both hot and, surprisingly, cold. Unless they incorporate mil-spec devices, temperatures below 0 F may prevent them from even powering up. I experienced just that with a Xantrex Prosine 2.0.

Take a look at how the good stuff is made, like Magnum and Outback. Internal temp sensing and variable speed fans and temp shutdowns, heavy duty components, etc. They have been reliable on boats for decades, but nearly all boaters carry the parts to repair or replace their alternators if they are on the water for long periods. Bearings, brushes, vibration, heat cycling, all take a toll on an alternator's life. The Balmar will cycle the alternator to keep it from going to complete heat failure, but in some sense, the hot cycling can be even harder on a device.



I am sure the Volta alternators are very good pieces, but I would also bet that the mean time between failure on them is considerably shorter than than the other charging parts.


Remember that ARV had to upgrade the Nations alternators due to failures, but we haven't heard anything about a rash of failures in their Outback charging parts.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

Take a look at how the good stuff is made, like Magnum and Outback. Internal temp sensing and variable speed fans and temp shutdowns, heavy duty components, etc. They have been reliable on boats for decades, but nearly all boaters carry the parts to repair or replace their alternators if they are on the water for long periods. Bearings, brushes, vibration, heat cycling, all take a toll on an alternator's life. The Balmar will cycle the alternator to keep it from going to complete heat failure, but in some sense, the hot cycling can be even harder on a device.



I am sure the Volta alternators are very good pieces, but I would also bet that the mean time between failure on them is considerably shorter than than the other charging parts.


Remember that ARV had to upgrade the Nations alternators due to failures, but we haven't heard anything about a rash of failures in their Outback charging parts.

Well taken points. Thanks. However, if the inverter is not in a space well enough ventilated to displace the heated air, temperature control goes away. I imagine that sometimes it's not even the upbuilder's fault - the owner stores stuff in the same enclosure impeding efficient air flow in and out.

Re the Nations alternator. I'm aware that ARV moved to the Delco alternator but I thought it was because it had a high cold amp delivery (330 vs. 280) and additionally because it derated significantly less than the Nations when running hot. But I was unaware that they were experiencing actual failure of the Nations unit. Can you enlarge on that? On the RT Nations equipped Etrek/ECO coaches, I've seen reports of failure of the Balmar regulator but I haven't run across anyone reporting a failure of the Nations alternator itself.

[booster]

The Nations failures were mentioned by davydd, IIRC. I think he phrased it as they wanted to change because of reliability issues or something like that. Davydd did have a temp sensor failure on his Balmar when he had the Nations, though, I am fairly certain.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

The Nations failures were mentioned by davydd, IIRC. I think he phrased it as they wanted to change because of reliability issues or something like that. Davydd did have a temp sensor failure on his Balmar when he had the Nations, though, I am fairly certain.

Perhaps he can chime in with more details regarding the change. I thought it was done to eliminate the battery death spiral rather than a failure of the alternator itself.

The consequences of the Balmar temp sense failure probably depends on the nature of the failure. If the sensor quits entirely or the cnnecting cable opens, perhaps the regulator is designed to respond to an open sensor by defaulting field current to a low enough level that would obviously lower charging rate but would prevent overheating damage. But if the sensor, rather than failing, just delivered erroneous data, depending on the magnitude and more important, the polarity of the error. I guess the consequence could range from the innocuous to a total meltdown.

[BBQ]

.

The weak link seems to be the idler arm dampener.

The compression ignition engine produces a violent burst of power that is very destructive. That's why ARV went to all the trouble of research and testing to find a suitable dampener. Roadtrek did not, and you can see the failure reports all over the web.

The Travato is a gas powered RV. Hopefully, the diesel engine trouble is not replicated here.

[booster]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

The weak link seems to be the idler arm dampener.

The compression ignition engine produces a violent burst of power that is very destructive. That's why ARV went to all the trouble of research and testing to find a suitable dampener. Roadtrek did not, and you can see the failure reports all over the web.

The Travato is a gas powered RV. Hopefully, the diesel engine trouble is not replicated here.

Didn't the improved and very expensive damper get implemented at the same time as the Delco alternator? I seem to remember a video showing both on test.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

The weak link seems to be the idler arm dampener.

The compression ignition engine produces a violent burst of power that is very destructive. That's why ARV went to all the trouble of research and testing to find a suitable dampener.

This appears to have been a misdiagnosis on ARV's part. The setup provided by the standard Nation's kit does NOT exhibit the oscillation problem that they were trying to fix. I demonstrated this in the video linked to in this post

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...html#post44432

Although ARV was originally using the Nation's alternator and Balmar regulator, they were apparently using some other (perhaps home-brew) belt setup. (N.B., we are NOT talking about the standard MB mounting bracket, which everybody uses). It appears that the original problem was specific to their original custom design.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

Didn't the improved and very expensive damper get implemented at the same time as the Delco alternator? I seem to remember a video showing both on test.

They describe it as a "torque converter". The U-tube shows a diminished alternator pitch and sound level. Maybe I'm missing something but with a Balmar regulator involved, I'm puzzled that the startup torque exhibited by the Sprinter engine could fracture or even significantly stress the idler arm. If the alternator immediately went into full squash I could see some potential for stress but the regulator is programmed for both a delay in any field current supplied to the alternator after engine startup followed by a soft-start that gradually ramps up alternator output.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XANYxoEF_HY