Composting Toilet, Cassette Toilet and Black Tanks

[gregmchugh]

If you decide to go with a composting toilet after seeing the FitRV video then you can save some money with a C-Head. Does the basic functions but not as rugged construction as the Airhead or Natures Head. No vent fan which may not be best, see the FitRV for issues of odor and moisture buildup in the solids container that the vent fan helps with.

[Davydd]

I've seen the Wynn's video, the FitRV video and now the c-Head video. I definitely pass on this idea.

For one, I am a human and not a cat that wants to play with my poop and cover it. BTW, if you are a cat owner you well know covering poop does not guarantee no smell.

Two of the systems rely on constant fan exhaust to control the smell. You do realize that is 24/7 including when your RV is parked and not in use.

The Wynn video was ridiculous in that you had to walk a pee bucket and then the whole toilet for the solids through their RV to dispose. Those toilets weigh about 40 lbs plus the waste. The FitRV made a joke of the urine disposal.

In none of those videos did anyone dare show the procedure with real waste.

In the FitRV video we learned you were not really disposing compost. So in effect you are not composting when on the road, you are dumping waste in a more unsanitary manner no matter how you rationalize it with diaper disposal, dog poop disposal, etc.

We learned you had to separate urine from solids and to do so men had to sit on a toilet like Jack Nicholson in the move "About Schmidt". Sorry, I pass.

Since the system relied on solids separate from liquids, how is diarrhea and vomit handled? You know it is going to happen.

We also learned that handling and disposing of waste was more frequent than traditional black tanks. Every day for urine and every four days for solids in the FitRV video.

No one discussed cleanup maintenance. How do you handle crud buildup? How do you deal with replenishing the organic materials in a soiled, smelly tank?

Conserve water? Give me a break. We use about 40 gallons per week in our RV. That is very conservatively 1/20th home use. It isn't going to save the world when you use almost as much water anyway in the grey tank. That is little incentive for an RV.

Speaking of the grey tank. You don't save any tasks since you have to visit an RV dump anyway. Anyone that suggest you can dispose urine and grey water on the ground is a fool. Campgrounds both structured and primitive are concentrated with frequent use and common disposal that way would turn them into cesspools.

Toilet paper? You know it is a third world practice disposing of your unsanitary toilet paper in a separate waste container, not to mention one more unsanitary item to maintain.

All in all it seems like a lot of unsanitary work, a lot more work and questionable practices to maintain for little gain. For gain, it seems the bottom line is you can use your RV in the winter. How practical is that in reality? Or will you really use your RV any length of time in the winter to put up with that system the rest of the year?

Did I miss anything?

[BBQ]

.

LOL

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Did I miss anything?

Hey! You kids get off my lawn!

[Bud]

Wow Mr. Davydd, sometimes you really really do know your Sh*t.

Bud

[gregmchugh]

Always fun to see the strong opinions of something as innocuous as RV toilet options...

Just mention the words cassette or composting and get ready for the responses...

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Bud

Wow Mr. Davydd, sometimes you really really do know your Sh*t.

Bud

LOL

[BBQ]

.

Cassette is good, they say.


NOT

The last thing you will see me doing is dragging a luggage sized shxt box to MacDonalds every 2 to 3 days.

How or where am I supposed to wash the damn thing before bringing it back?


Do you expect me to bring back lunch too?


And then I still have to go dump the gray tank.



When I am in the boonies, I don't want to come back for at least a week.

[skagitstan]

At the end of the FitRV video, they continue to endorse the composter.
In spite of the trade-offs.
Every solution has tradeoffs.

For us, it is the best solution for boon-docking (not in campgrounds), especially in a B class, where water is limited. It also is a whole lot easier to install in a DIY like Annie.

A cassette requires liquid to flush, store, remove, and dump. It has a smaller holding capacity than a composter. It's really just a tiny black tank system.

A regular black water system requires water and chemicals. And an RV dump facility.

With a composter, we can dump pee in any outhouse with a lot less inconvenience than a cassette. Fortunately we're not embarrassed by carrying a pee bottle.

Solids don't need the RV dump. Just a good garbage bag.

Our 41Gal fresh water is saved for drinking, cooking and cleaning. Means we can eventually stay out longer.

Since Annie isn't quite complete, we've only gone out on a couple of short shakedown trips. But so far, smells and bugs have not been issues at all.
If we have our Maxxair running, we set it to blow in, not exhaust, with windows open. If we have the windows closed and fan off, the composter fan seems to handle things fine.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by skagitstan

A cassette requires liquid to flush, store, remove, and dump. It has a smaller holding capacity than a composter. It's really just a tiny black tank system.

I agree with this. In fairness, though, some would argue that a cassette can be dumped in an outhouse. Hard for me to picture this, but I guess it happens. Of course, a macerator and a long hose can do the same.

A regular black water system requires water and chemicals. And an RV dump facility.

Water, yes. But a properly functioning black system has no need for chemicals. If it smells, there is something wrong with it.

With a composter, we can dump pee in any outhouse with a lot less inconvenience than a cassette. Fortunately we're not embarrassed by carrying a pee bottle.

But, as DavyDD said, you still need a dump station for gray water. If your tanks are properly balanced to your usage, I see no advantage at all, unless maybe if you have a truly huge gray tank.

[skagitstan]

Originally Posted by avanti

I agree with this. In fairness, though, some would argue that a cassette can be dumped in an outhouse. Hard for me to picture this, but I guess it happens. Of course, a macerator and a long hose can do the same.

Water, yes. But a properly functioning black system has no need for chemicals. If it smells, there is something wrong with it.

But, as DavyDD said, you still need a dump station for gray water. If your tanks are properly balanced to your usage, I see no advantage at all, unless maybe if you have a truly huge gray tank.

Like I said, "With a composter, we can dump pee in any outhouse with a lot less inconvenience than a cassette." I'm sure that dumping a cassette into an outhouse is possible, but not likely all that easy.

Our gray is 21 gal, and we don't have a shower. It should last a long while, at least that's the plan.

In the past, we've always needed enzyme additives for the black tank. Just water would not work. That's chemicals and it's still not odor free, just not as bad as formaldehyde.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by skagitstan

we don't have a shower.

Ah, yes. Not having a shower makes a big difference.

In the past, we've always needed enzyme additives for the black tank. Just water would not work.

What was the problem? We NEVER use chemicals, and basically never have.

[skagitstan]

Originally Posted by avanti

Ah, yes. Not having a shower makes a big difference.

What was the problem? We NEVER use chemicals, and basically never have.

Sensitive noses? Stinky poop? Liquids and solids fermenting together? Strict rationing to minimize water used in the flush?
All I know is that, without the enzymes, after a week or so boondocking, the john got kinda rank whenever the flapper opened.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by skagitstan

At the end of the FitRV video, they continue to endorse the composter.
In spite of the trade-offs.
Every solution has tradeoffs.

For us, it is the best solution for boon-docking (not in campgrounds), especially in a B class, where water is limited. It also is a whole lot easier to install in a DIY like Annie.

I think once you commit you will rationalize and never admit it might have been a mistake. Whether that's true or not, it is your choice. I've been Class B RVing for a dozen years in every state and province one can drive to and I boondock with no hookups now over 90% of the time. You have to have really specific boondock criteria to justify a composting toilet and all its inconveniences I mentioned. In North America dumping conventional tanks is not a problem.

DIY is definitely easier as it eliminates a lot of complicated plumbing. But if one is buying from a converter that provides a conventional system, that I seriously question. But if I was doing a DIY I think a cassette toilet would be a lot easier, way more convenient and a lot simpler to deal with.

[skagitstan]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I think once you commit you will rationalize and never admit it might have been a mistake. Whether that's true or not, it is your choice. I've been Class B RVing for a dozen years in every state and province one can drive to and I boondock with no hookups now over 90% of the time. You have to have really specific boondock criteria to justify a composting toilet and all its inconveniences I mentioned. In North America dumping conventional tanks is not a problem.

DIY is definitely easier as it eliminates a lot of complicated plumbing. But if one is buying from a converter that provides a conventional system, that I seriously question. But if I was doing a DIY I think a cassette toilet would be a lot easier, way more convenient and a lot simpler to deal with.

Could be different boondocking parameters.
While Annie will be our first B (outside of the VW bus we lived in on back B.C. logging roads way back when) , we've also RV camped for many a year. Our goal has always been to find a good remote spot with good trailheads nearby and not change camp sites for a week or more at a time. No dump stations available. Fanciest amenity would be some pit toilets (maybe) at a trailhead.

Our reason for downsizing to a B is to make getting into even more remote spots practical, and our design remains biased towards long stays at one site.

I do know that started to push the black tank limits, and had an impact on our fresh, even with the larger tanks in our old C or subsequent trailer.

If you break camp and travel more often, I can see that finding a dump station would be more practical.

A friend of ours has a cassette in an older DIY, and really hates the inconvenience of lugging the cassette and dumping it into a pit toilet every few days. I suppose if we start finding intolerable composter problems, we can always revisit that option.

Stan

[wincrasher]

They lost me at "heavy flow", "moisture control" and "know your poop". I don't want to know my poop. And I'm sure my flow is much too heavy.

I did upgrade my sewer hose to this though - takes alot of the ick and danger out of dumping the tanks - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by skagitstan

A friend of ours has a cassette in an older DIY, and really hates the inconvenience of lugging the cassette and dumping it into a pit toilet every few days. I suppose if we start finding intolerable composter problems, we can always revisit that option.

Stan

I'm curious. The Wynn's said they had to pull the whole toilet and carry it through their RV and out to dump it. TheFitRV never mentioned or demonstrated the process. Nevertheless, however, doesn't it have to be carried through and out be it a pee bucket or solids contained some way? How would a cassette be more inconvenient than that?

I'm seriously mystified. I designed a house with a Clivus Multrum composting toilet once for a client. I'm not unfamiliar in how it all works. In a fixed position it had to be designed so one could conveniently remove the compost from outside the house. It was compost because of the design and capacity. TheFitRV spilled the beans that in an RV it is not a composting toilet.

I have a Class B with conventional toilet. I said before we average 10 days between dumps and no matter how heavily we use it we can easily go a week (40g Water, 26g Grey and 18g Black). Water for consumption usually has to be replenished in a week's time and it is difficult to go much more than a week without needing to reprovision food in a Class B. Then if you park at trailheads and leave your B for any amount of time you extend your tank capacity simply by not using it. If you stay at your B and have to use it when no other facilities can relieve that use and have the habits of TheFitRV then you have a 4 day fill up and thus disposal limit. That gets back to that disposal issue of how it is done and what are the clean up procedures?

[wincrasher]

They are secured with clips so you can remove the whole thing and take it out and dump it. The pee bucket is just that - a bucket with a cap that you can carry out and dump. I suppose you'd have to literally drop it and have the cap pop off for there to be a spill in the RV. The toilet part is the same I guess, with the valve acting as the cap. The Wynns show in one of their video that you can take it apart further so you can dump it.

It does sound like it can be easily disrupted, resulting in having to dump basically unprocessed sewage, clean it and start over. Not an appealing task to say the least.

I particularly don't understand the desire to use one of these on a boat. Once 3 miles out, you are free to dump your sewage overboard. It's not particularly environmentally unfriendly to do so, just nasty and unpleasant. What can be harmful environmentally is using a bunch of treatment chemicals - that and just the sheer volume is why the cruise ships are prohibited from doing it.

[gregmchugh]

The frequency of needing to dump the solid side seems to vary a lot with the FitRV needed to dump more a lot more often than the frequency of the Wynns which I recall was on the order of weeks. You would need to carry the toilet outside if you want to avoid dumping the compost mixture into a trash bag inside the van.

I go back and forth on cassette vs composting for our next vehicle which will be a 4x4 expedition type vehicle with four season capability, probably something on a F-550 chassis. After the FitRV video I moved back to cassette with one or two spare cassettes but if I find more positive reports on composting I could move back to composting. There are some expedition vehicle owners who are doing fine with composting toilets so it is not all negative reviews.

Here is thread with a positive review of a Natures Head ...

http://tigerowners.freeforums.org/vi...lit=composting

[skagitstan]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I'm curious. The Wynn's said they had to pull the whole toilet and carry it through their RV and out to dump it. TheFitRV never mentioned or demonstrated the process. Nevertheless, however, doesn't it have to be carried through and out be it a pee bucket or solids contained some way? How would a cassette be more inconvenient than that?

I'm seriously mystified. I designed a house with a Clivus Multrum composting toilet once for a client. I'm not unfamiliar in how it all works. In a fixed position it had to be designed so one could conveniently remove the compost from outside the house. It was compost because of the design and capacity. TheFitRV spilled the beans that in an RV it is not a composting toilet.

I have a Class B with conventional toilet. I said before we average 10 days between dumps and no matter how heavily we use it we can easily go a week (40g Water, 26g Grey and 18g Black). Water for consumption usually has to be replenished in a week's time and it is difficult to go much more than a week without needing to reprovision food in a Class B. Then if you park at trailheads and leave your B for any amount of time you extend your tank capacity simply by not using it. If you stay at your B and have to use it when no other facilities can relieve that use and have the habits of TheFitRV then you have a 4 day fill up and thus disposal limit. That gets back to that disposal issue of how it is done and what are the clean up procedures?

We expect (based on our short shakedown trips) that the solids container will last 2 weeks or more at our normal rate of production.
As wincrasher says, it comes out quite easily by loosening 2 thumbscrews.
Since our john is opposite the sliding door, with nothing obstructing the path, the container does not need to be carried all through the RV.

Here are pics of how it's located:



Of course, the same would apply to a cassette. Difference being that we won't need to dump solids nearly as frequently, which gives us more flexibility in when/where we can dump.

My understanding is that the Airhead/Nature's Head will eventually compost, but certainly not within the time frame of a camping trip. So if/when necessary, we will likely use the garbage bag disposal method.

We've always managed to easily stock enough food for at least 2 weeks. We don't eat that much, and our old backpacking habits still hold. We used to go on 2 week backpack trips every year, with no food resupply possible.

So, our water needs should ideally match that. Since our fresh and gray tanks are about the same size as yours, and we don't lose any fresh for black use, our water should last longer than it can in your usage. We don't anticipate a need to restock food or water, or find dump services quicker than that ~2weeks.

As an aside, I designed our FW intake plumbing to allow us to use the pump to refill from streams (with filtering or treatment) as well as from (pressurized) city water. This will be a less than dependable backup way to restock water, so I won't count it towards a 2 week estimate.

Parking at a trailhead doesn't significantly reduce water consumption from the tank. The trailheads are almost always dry, so any water we carry on a hike will come from our tank. Going on hikes does reduce the rate that we fill the pee bucket.

Stan