Coachmen Galleria

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by BobB

Winnebago Class Bs - Travato, Era and Paseo - do not come with inverters. Not an option, either as far as I know.

Looking through the full Pleasure-way 2016 catalog, there is no mention of any inverter included in their equipment profile, so perhaps I have this all bass ackwards and that no inverter may be closer to the rule than the exception.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

The last time I stumbled through West Marine, 2/0 was $8 per foot and 3/0 was $12 per foot, sans terminals.

You can do a LOT better than West Marine on eBay. Keep an eye out for end-of-reel remnants from the guys who sell to the "bitchin' audio" gang.

[booster]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Not necessarily. For extended high load conditions, you're right. But for moderate loads and even brief high loads like a microwave oven use, 200ah of flooded cell batteries will fill that bill. I do it regularly with a Magnum 2000 watt inverter with 200 ah battery support. LTV has the same battery ah profile (except they are AGM) as the Galleria and they provide an inverter which used to be 750 watts which I think has been beefed up to 1200 watts.

FWIW, if you're short on battery capacity during a an extended high load requirement, you can always fire up the engine and even at idle you can get an additional 100 amps (mas o menos depending on the particular alternator) to temporarily supplement battery support of the inverter.

We ran our microwave quite a few times off of the wet cells we used to have. Dometic 700 watt micro in our Roadtrek, Samlex 1500 watt PSW inverter, properly sized wiring, two Trojan T145 6 volt GC batteries at 260ah of 12v in near new condition. I can tell you for certain that is we were below 50% it was hit and miss whether or not it would trip the inverter low voltage alarm. I would even do it at 80% if the run was more than a minute or two. Engine running and helping out, the system would not be pulling much of anything from the batteries and the microwave would use about 90 amps. On full batteries about 105 amps. On 50% full batteries over 125 amps.

200ah of AGM batteries will usually run the microwave, but not if you are down really low on charge, so you can't compare that to a wet cell setup.

With 200ah of wet cells, a small inverter is about all you could really use, so a point of use one or two small ones for the TV or rechargeable device location is likely a much better choice than a higher buck, bigger wiring, inverter that the batteries can't really support well enough to be useful.

[BobB]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Not necessarily. For extended high load conditions, you're right. But for moderate loads and even brief high loads like a microwave oven use, 200ah of flooded cell batteries will fill that bill. I do it regularly with a Magnum 2000 watt inverter with 200 ah battery support. LTV has the same battery ah profile (except they are AGM) as the Galleria and they provide an inverter which used to be 750 watts which I think has been beefed up to 1200 watts.

FWIW, if you're short on battery capacity during a an extended high load requirement, you can always fire up the engine and even at idle you can get an additional 100 amps (mas o menos depending on the particular alternator) to temporarily supplement battery support of the inverter.

What's interesting is that while the cost per watt of the inverter has decreased, the cost for the supporting battery cable has gone up through the roof and represents a significant part of the total installation cost. The last time I stumbled through West Marine, 2/0 was $8 per foot and 3/0 was $12 per foot, sans terminals.

Agree as to lighter loads. As to cost of cable, how many feet between battery and inverter? 2/0 @ $8/ft? For a $100k RV, that is not going to tank their profit, IMO

[SiennaGuy]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Looking through the full Pleasure-way 2016 catalog, there is no mention of any inverter included in their equipment profile, so perhaps I have this all bass ackwards and that no inverter may be closer to the rule than the exception.

The marketing people decide what goes in the brochure and what gets left out. If they decide that most folks really don't want to know about inverters, then it's not in the brochure. That doesn't mean that the RVs don't have them. The marketers probably think that if you want to know the answer, you'll contact the company and give your email address, or you'll call your local dealer, probably leaving your phone number. And that's the goal of RV marketing in the first place.

The 2017 PleasureWay brochure says in the chart near the back pages that all of their models have a 2000 watt inverter.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by avanti

You can do a LOT better than West Marine on eBay. Keep an eye out for end-of-reel remnants from the guys who sell to the "bitchin' audio" gang.

You're undoubtedly right but if this is being bought on line, I'll offer some suggestions learned the hard way:

1. Regardless of the gauge you're buying, be sure you are getting wire drawn to the AWG gauge standard not the SAE gauge standard. The circular mil content differs. I've seen snazzy looking audio cable labeled 4g that on further inspection looks closer to 6g.

2. When using gauges like 2/0 - 3/0, stick with fine wire, sometimes described as welding cable. I'm partial to West Marine because they use extra fine conductors in their cables making them very flexible and easier to route. For short runs, IMO, it's worth paying the premium. I've seen some 3/0 cable that would require calling out the National Guard to bend and shape it. (Also, West Marine makes available the humungous swaging tool you need to crimp any connectors you wish (yours or theirs) to their cables).

3. Long term corrosion developing at the cable terminals is minimized by opting for cable that has individually tinned conductors.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by SiennaGuy

The 2017 PleasureWay brochure says in the chart near the back pages that all of their models have a 2000 watt inverter.

On those same pages in the 2016 brochure there is no mention of an inverter. So they either left it out or the inverter was introduced in the 2017 model. For 2016, the ah capacity of the lithiums was 200 ah (2 x 100 ah). Has that been increased for 2017?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

You're undoubtedly right but if this is being bought on line, I'll offer some suggestions learned the hard way:

1. Regardless of the gauge you're buying, be sure you are getting wire drawn to the AWG gauge standard not the SAE gauge standard. The circular mil content differs. I've seen snazzy looking audio cable labeled 4g that on further inspection looks closer to 6g.

2. When using gauges like 2/0 - 3/0, stick with fine wire, sometimes described as welding cable. I'm partial to West Marine because they use extra fine conductors in their cables making them very flexible and easier to route. For short runs, IMO, it's worth paying the premium. I've seen some 3/0 cable that would require calling out the National Guard to bend and shape it. (Also, West Marine makes available the humungous swaging tool you need to crimp any connectors you wish (yours or theirs) to their cables).

3. Long term corrosion developing at the cable terminals is minimized by opting for cable that has individually tinned conductors.

All totally true. However, there are eBay vendors who meet all these criteria. It is true that it is a little hard to know what you are getting until you have purchased from a particular vendor. Maybe I just got lucky, but I've done well. As for the humungous crimp tool, they, too, are available at reasonable prices. IMO, it is well worth buying one for all but the simplest of jobs. It is far easier to size and crimp the wires in place, rather than trying to measure and specify in advance.

I agree about buying the super-flexible kind. If you want the "National Guard" stuff, you can get it at Home Depot.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by BobB

Agree as to lighter loads. As to cost of cable, how many feet between battery and inverter? 2/0 @ $8/ft? For a $100k RV, that is not going to tank their profit, IMO

No, it's certainly not going to tank their profit

But the cost can be more than you might think because unlike Class A coaches with, say, a single group 8 battery, the multiple batteries in a Class B might be stuck all over the place, significantly complicating and lengthening cable requirements. BTW, the convention in high power inverters seems to be avoiding using the chassis for the battery return which doubles the total length of cable required.

[SiennaGuy]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

On those same pages in the 2016 brochure there is no mention of an inverter. So they either left it out or the inverter was introduced in the 2017 model. For 2016, the ah capacity of the lithiums was 200 ah (2 x 100 ah). Has that been increased for 2017?

I took a look at the 2016 brochure, and I found, as you did, that inverters aren't listed. They weren't listed in the 2014 or the 2015 brochures, either. Again, that doesn't mean that the RVs didn't have them. I've sent an email to them about their 2016 models, and when I hear back, I'll post it.

The 2017 models look like they have the same batteries as before ("dual 100AH ECO-ION Lithium batteries").

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by booster

We ran our microwave quite a few times off of the wet cells we used to have. Dometic 700 watt micro in our Roadtrek, Samlex 1500 watt PSW inverter, properly sized wiring, two Trojan T145 6 volt GC batteries at 260ah of 12v in near new condition. I can tell you for certain that is we were below 50% it was hit and miss whether or not it would trip the inverter low voltage alarm. I would even do it at 80% if the run was more than a minute or two. Engine running and helping out, the system would not be pulling much of anything from the batteries and the microwave would use about 90 amps. On full batteries about 105 amps. On 50% full batteries over 125 amps.

200ah of AGM batteries will usually run the microwave, but not if you are down really low on charge, so you can't compare that to a wet cell setup.

With 200ah of wet cells, a small inverter is about all you could really use, so a point of use one or two small ones for the TV or rechargeable device location is likely a much better choice than a higher buck, bigger wiring, inverter that the batteries can't really support well enough to be useful.

In terms of their efficiency, I think the best thing that has recently happened to these high power inverters is coupling them with lithium batteries that have a flat discharge curve compared to the sagging voltage curve of lead acid batteries. Inverters really want to see their design input voltage to deliver the desired wave form and amplitude.

I can hardly believe that my first entanglement with inverters was over half a century ago with the Heathkit MP-10 power inverter. Man, have these puppies come a long way!

You include proper sizing of the battery to input cables as one of the prerequisites for proper inverter operation. I think this is under appreciated. Even assuming the battery is a 12 volt amp hour fortress, if the inverter is supporting a 1000 watt load, the connecting cable and terminals have to have sufficiently little resistance to limit the voltage drop at the inverter to around 1/4 volt and certainly not more than 1/2 volt. At the amperage levels involved, undersized cable or even a single flaky connection can push the voltage drop past an acceptable point and regardless of the battery state, the inverter is prone to alarm and shut down. When this happens, it's commonly diagnosed sometimes as an inverter problem and sometimes as a battery problem but it ends up being neither - it's a cabling problem.

[NorthPotomac]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Looking through the full Pleasure-way 2016 catalog, there is no mention of any inverter included in their equipment profile, so perhaps I have this all bass ackwards and that no inverter may be closer to the rule than the exception.

The 2017 PW's all have 2000W Pure Sine inverters.

[Bud]

"The last time I stumbled through West Marine, 2/0 was $8 per foot and 3/0 was $12 per foot, sans terminals."

When I was adding an additional group 27 battery I need some 4/0 cable. I considered the usual choices and found the best deal was jumper cables. I was even able to use one end without having to crimp, screw or otherwise. Most jumper cable is flexible almost by definitiion. There are 2/0 jumper cables and even 1/0 on amazon.

Many choices that are a fraction of the cost. I suppose one difference are the marketing and labor expenses - lots of jumper cables out there ........

Bud

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Bud

"The last time I stumbled through West Marine, 2/0 was $8 per foot and 3/0 was $12 per foot, sans terminals."

When I was adding an additional group 27 battery I need some 4/0 cable. I considered the usual choices and found the best deal was jumper cables. I was even able to use one end without having to crimp, screw or otherwise. Most jumper cable is flexible almost by definitiion. There are 2/0 jumper cables and even 1/0 on amazon.

Many choices that are a fraction of the cost. I suppose one difference are the marketing and labor expenses - lots of jumper cables out there ........

Bud

Just as an example, two years ago I purchased a 24 foot end-of-spool piece of wire from eBay seller acdcelectricparts. The spec was:
UL 10070 3/0 AWG BLACK 600V CSA HIGH FLEX 6783 STRAND AUDIO CABLE WIRE
The price was $75, or just over $3/ft. It was awesome wire.

I paid another $40 at Amazon for a proper hydraulic crimping tool.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Bud

"The last time I stumbled through West Marine, 2/0 was $8 per foot and 3/0 was $12 per foot, sans terminals."

When I was adding an additional group 27 battery I need some 4/0 cable. I considered the usual choices and found the best deal was jumper cables. I was even able to use one end without having to crimp, screw or otherwise. Most jumper cable is flexible almost by definitiion. There are 2/0 jumper cables and even 1/0 on amazon.

Many choices that are a fraction of the cost. I suppose one difference are the marketing and labor expenses - lots of jumper cables out there ........

Bud

4/0 cable to add a 27 battery?

[Bud]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

4/0 cable to add a 27 battery?

The 05/04 Roadtrek 190 came with only one group 27 battery. I added the second group 27 battery using size 4 jumper cables. Everything else stayed the same, so I still can't draw any more power from the 2 batteries or charge any faster. The same max amp's is my understanding to and from the battery Or batteries.

If I screwed up, please speak up and thanks.

Bud

[tgregg]

Originally Posted by Bud

I added the second group 27 battery using size 4 jumper cables.

If I screwed up, please speak up and thanks.

Bud

AWG 4 is not the same as AWG 4/0 (or 0000)

[Bud]

Originally Posted by tgregg

AWG 4 is not the same as AWG 4/0 (or 0000)

Thanks tgregg. Misread what I replied to from the beginning.

Bud

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Bud

The 05/04 Roadtrek 190 came with only one group 27 battery. I added the second group 27 battery using size 4 jumper cables. Everything else stayed the same, so I still can't draw any more power from the 2 batteries or charge any faster. The same max amp's is my understanding to and from the battery Or batteries.

If I screwed up, please speak up and thanks.

Bud

Bud, it's a confusing measuring system and trust me, you've got a lot of company, including myself.

For starters, like the gauge scale for shotguns, the metal gauge scale is non-intuitive. IMO, it would have been better if the finest wire capable of being drawn would be represented as 0 gauge. With the scale employed it's easy to confuse 4 gauge with the larger 4/0 gauge, etc. Although it's not commonly used in identifying primary and battery cable, the circular-mil scale avoids this confusion.

[SiennaGuy]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

On those same pages in the 2016 brochure there is no mention of an inverter. So they either left it out or the inverter was introduced in the 2017 model. For 2016, the ah capacity of the lithiums was 200 ah (2 x 100 ah). Has that been increased for 2017?

Here's the info on the 2016 Pleasureway inverters, direct from them:
"350 watt sized to accommodate the TV and blu ray player"

As I've said before, just because it's not in the brochure doesn't mean that the RVs don't have them.