Class B and HOAs

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

If you believe this, why do people buy into an HOA?

I agree with your sentiment, but your advice is easier said than done. In many areas of the country it is incredibly difficult to find a nice, high-quality property that ISN'T encumbered by an HOA. When we built our current house many years ago, we were thrilled to find a great lot in a new development that didn't provide for an HOA in the covenants. It turned out to be an oversight! When the situation dawned on my new neighbors, about half of them immediately attempted to form one anyway. We politely told them that they could do anything they like but that we would respectfully decline to join any organization that had any control over what we did with our property, and that there was no way they could force us to do so. Much lawyering ensued, ultimately yielding the conclusion that, absent an enabling covenant, there indeed was no way to foist an HOA on us after the fact. So, we ended up voluntarily forming a "Garden Club" to which everybody contributes money to maintain the common spaces of the community. It has no power to force anyone to do anything that isn't in the rather lightweight deed covenants, which have proven more than adequate over the years. Works great.

[Davydd]

Our little cu-de-sac is a private street which means they city does not maintain it. There is also common property which might be more than all the individual property together and we pay to keep it mowed, looking nice and landscaped it. We individually technically own 5 feet out from the foundation and can do what we want to do with it. We grew tomatoes and herbs. I guess an HOA is absolutely necessary. Being a small HOA we have met all our neighbors and had several block parties. It is not a 55+ HOA but the appeal circumstances, design of the units and cost were such it turned out that way. Not a single kid.

How does common space occur without an HOA? Somebody has to own it and be responsible for it. If it is the city then I would guess your taxes would along with lobbying your government to do something. Beyond that it would be voluntary I would think.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

How does common space occur without an HOA? Somebody has to own it and be responsible for it. If it is the city then I would guess your taxes would along with lobbying your government to do something. Beyond that it would be voluntary I would think.

In our case, since there was no corporate entity to accept ownership of the common areas, the township was forced to accept it. They maintain the roads, and that is about it. As I said, we have a voluntary "Garden Club" that keeps the common areas nice. They do a very good job for very little money, since this setup encourages volunteerism. Nobody can be forced to contribute, but over many years, we have had very few issues, and the situation has remained consistently happy, without the feeling of being under the thumb of a volunteer board. Our development is quite large, so I consider the arrangement as an existence proof of what is possible.

IMO, the problem with HOAs is that, since the positions are uncompensated and often a constant source of grief by those who choose to participate, they tend to attract power-hungry people with time on their hands--not always optimal folks to whom one wants to be beholden. This is by no means universal (we have a HOA at a vacation property and they are great). But nor is it uncommon. The larger the community, I suspect, the greater the likelihood of this problem occurring. It is probably a non-issue in Davydd's situation, but it can be a big problem in other cases.

[Davydd]

Just the opposite. In our first HOA meeting most were reluctant to be on the board but some had to step up. The builder/developer was on the board until the last unit was sold and board dismissed him pronto. I'm not on the board and I didn't volunteer since we travel about a third of the year and would probably miss as many meetings. One board member will have to step down next year. They are going on a 1-1/2 year sailboat cruise but will retain the house. One board member resigned this year and is building a new home in Florida. They sold, ironically, to a person who lived in Florida and wanted to return to Minnesota alerted by another neighbor in the development that the house was going up for sale.

We have a management company that tends to HOA matters such as contracts for insurance, snowplowing, exterior repairs and maintenance, landscaping, mowing, Trash pickup, etc. So far, they seem pretty good and responsive. The board just communicates and approves.

[GeorgeRa]

I had one unpleasant experience with HOA, this was in a new development in hills of a small city in Oregon. There was a voluntary HOA board of about 3 member board. After building our custom house we decided to build an additional large garage for six cars, 14’ ceiling, matching house materials, matching roof slope and 4’ eave. The garage was tucked down in the corner of the property invisible from the main road. These were the toys days.

We got building permit from the county and asked HOA board for the permission, they started dragging their feet, too big, too tall, garage doors too tall etc. After a few back and forth we decided to agree to disagree and built it. The key member not willing to give us the permission moved out in one year.

By far, the biggest issue was the accumulation of stuff in the 2 six car garages and years later downsizing to a normal size garage in Portland, this was very painful.

[GallenH]

Originally Posted by avanti

In our case, since there was no corporate entity to accept ownership of the common areas, the township was forced to accept it.

That's odd. Who owned the common area previously? I mean, someone other than the township must have. Why would the township be forced to accept private property from anyone?

There seem to be many flavors of HOAs. In the PHX area common areas can be anything from the surrounding wall and the space between the wall and the street (our case) to common areas which have swimming pools. It's usually written into the HOA covenants that after the last lot is sold, the HOA assumes responsibility for the common areas. That includes both maintaining the area and paying the property taxes (it is, after all, a parcel of city land). In our case, the property owners on the perimeter own (and pay taxes on) the land between the wall and the street. So the HOA actually owns no property and pays no taxes.

[rowiebowie]

Originally Posted by Davydd

If you believe this, why do people buy into an HOA?

I had no prior experience with HOA's and it was only after 5 weeks into the purchase process (at closing) that the HOA was revealed to me. I wasn't going to back out at that point as we had too much time and effort invested.

It was only later that I discovered our association is a joke, but not the funny kind.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GallenH

That's odd. Who owned the common area previously? I mean, someone other than the township must have. Why would the township be forced to accept private property from anyone?

The developer owned everything at the beginning. They would be out of the picture eventually, and since there was no HOA, there was really no alternative. The whole mess was ultimately the township's fault for approving the development with such a glaring defect in the deeds. This was their first big development, and at the time this was basically Mayberry RFD. I am pretty sure the roads were always intended to be dedicated to the township, so it wasn't that big a difference. I'm sure they learned from the experience. Worked out well for us.

[GallenH]

Originally Posted by avanti

The developer owned everything at the beginning. They would be out of the picture eventually, and since there was no HOA, there was really no alternative. The whole mess was ultimately the township's fault for approving the development with such a glaring defect in the deeds. This was their first big development, and at the time this was basically Mayberry RFD. I am pretty sure the roads were always intended to be dedicated to the township, so it wasn't that big a difference. I'm sure they learned from the experience. Worked out well for us.

Sounds complicated. Maybe the developer "gifted" the land to the township then or perhaps continually defaulted on taxes to the point where the township reposessed the land. Glad it worked out well for you.

[SDDavis]

So, my CCR's have this language:
No travel trailers, motor homes, commercial vehicles, boat trailers, etc.... other than automobiles or vehicles used primarily for general transportation purposes may be parked or stored upon the condominium premises.

I do recognize that fighting this may be akin to fighting City Hall. But, my Excel TS 2011 is my daily driver. I drive it almost everyday. My question is if I'm out of luck if asked to park it elsewhere? My point is that the sentence above allowing vehicles used primarily for general transportation purposes would allow me to park my van in the driveway . Also, the language above where the CCR's use the word "primarily". The word "primarily" indicates to me that the vehicle can/could have a secondary purpose. Seems like they would have said "exclusively" if they wanted to exclude daily driver vehicles other than automobiles.

One other question: My HOA doesn't control the streets within our development. They are patrolled and plowed by the county. You are allowed to park on the street for up to 72 hours before you have to move. Couldn't I just park on the street outside my house?

[Dogman]

Was RV's (That is driveway RVs or Parked Vans) an issue prior to moving into the HOA? as this could be your OUT. Another POINT to consider is there any other RV'ers in your HOA? as they could become helpful as to networking together.

If this is NEW in the HOA what changed?

Also is there any outside makings on the vehicle as you could get magnets mats to cover them and then When covered are they an issue is this for work vehicle and the HOA affecting your right.

It will or could be costly but if you were there prior to anything being in the HOA. Or it in some way affects your employment these may be outs. Then hiring an attorney. Networking can be split but its a way to fight back MAYBE.

[georgeherberger]

My HOA states "No RVs" but my Roadtrek 190 is registered as a Chevy 3500 van so no problem. This may not work for everyone.

[SDDavis]

Originally Posted by Dogman

Was RV's (That is driveway RVs or Parked Vans) an issue prior to moving into the HOA? as this could be your OUT. Another POINT to consider is there any other RV'ers in your HOA? as they could become helpful as to networking together.

If this is NEW in the HOA what changed?

Also is there any outside makings on the vehicle as you could get magnets mats to cover them and then When covered are they an issue is this for work vehicle and the HOA affecting your right.

It will or could be costly but if you were there prior to anything being in the HOA. Or it in some way affects your employment these may be outs. Then hiring an attorney. Networking can be split but its a way to fight back MAYBE.

Thanks! Good suggestions. The HOA has been in place since the development was built; about 25 years. Ironically, I believe it is the presence of other RV's that have prompted the HOA to issue a "friendly" reminder via a newsletter. There are at least a couple of Sprinters of similar size within the community. My next door neighbor has a Promaster with an awning he uses to store his motorcycles. My van doesn't have anything that really indicates that it is an RV; ie; no RV plates etc.. But it is rather tall!

[SDDavis]

Originally Posted by georgeherberger

My HOA states "No RVs" but my Roadtrek 190 is registered as a Chevy 3500 van so no problem. This may not work for everyone.

Mine is registered as a van as well and doesn't have RV plates.

[DWorrell3]

I was Secretary for our POA for three years, on the Architectural Control Board for three before that. Your regulations concerning RV's should be carefully outlined in your Covenants, Conditions and Restrictions. I'd carefully read those first. Remember, too, that all POAs are ultimately governed by their respective state laws. I'd take a look at those, also. Unfortunately, POAs are occasionally run by extreme jackasses, and even if you are right, it will cost you to find out. Cruise around the neighborhood and see if there are similar circumstances. I have a RoadTrek 190 Popular and it is seen as an RV. Dave W

[Bjones7788]

Our gated HOA By-Laws and Master Declaration of Restrictions spells out that trailers and RVs must be screened from view from the street and may not be lived in.
We park the RV in an open air garage under the roof of our house that has gates the height of the RV and probably 75 feet from the street.
BJ, Florida Keys. Roadtrek

[Chanuk]

The issue here is that for 14 years class B vans were accepted in this development and now all of the sudden the new management company has decided to enforce the covenant. They are using the board as their excuse!

[<<B-Guy>>]

I have often wondered what determines how Class B's get registered - it can make a significant difference to owners as to whether they are registered as vans or RV's

Where I live, there are city bylaws with respect to parking RV's on your property. When I first considered buying a B I looked into this and found that according to regulations I could park an RV in our drive for half the year over the summer months, but not the winter haf of the year.

I discussed details with the bylaw officer and asked how they considered a van camper - he said if there was any argument, they go by how it is registered, van or RV (or MH etc)

Incidentally, he also told me "Off the record" that they only enforce regulations f someone complains.

This was all maybe 8 years ago. At that time we ere considering buying a Roadtrek, largely because the factory was about an hour from our home.

I called RT and asked at that time how there vehciles were registered and was told they registered them as vans.

Turned out that we didn't go ahead with a purchase at that time anyway.

A couple of years ago we decided to make the change from our travel trailer. I again checked with RT before proceeding - this time I was told that their vehicles were registered as motorhomes!!

We went ahead anyway, but wound up buying a Pleasure-Way - it is registered as a motorhome! So far we have not had any problems, but I have to understand that I could have a winter parking problem if someone decided to complain!

Makes me wonder - do RV manufactureres have any choice in this? RV, MH or Van? Or is it clearly established by State or Provincial regulations and the manufacturer has no choice?

Maybe it varies by state or province?

In many cases I suspect it could be advantageous to buyers if it were registered as a van - if that were to be an option, and if so wish manufacturers would take note !

[booster]

Our Roadtrek 190P is registered as a Roadtrek RV and carries RV plates which are much cheaper, not Chevy van, but references the Chevy VIN#. We live in Minnesota.


Insurance guy said that is actually better for us (no HOA issues and parked inside anyway) because we get RV insurance rates which are lower than the van rates would be, and if it were to be totaled, it would be paid off as the RV value, not the van value. The Roadtrek value is dropping much more slowly than the van value would.

[<<B-Guy>>]

Thanks Booster - never thought about that aspect! Pros and Cons I guess.

I still wonder who determines how the vehicle gets registered!