Centralized control systems

[booster]

I watch the posts on the forum that come up as I find it all very interesting from many points of view. Mostly my interest drifts toward the equipment used in vans and what kind of issue folks have with the various brands and styles of class B RVs.


What seems to keep jumping out to me is that there seem to be a rather large amount of issues with the centralized control systems that run pretty much everything in the coach section of the B van.


The issues can be as basic as "my lights don't work" all the way to "I have no 12v power or charging available".


The commonality of it all is that it all goes back to one touch pad controller for it all that is not working correctly.


I am having trouble understanding why it is desirable to run the lights, fan, furnace, ceiling fan, water pump, water heater, furnace, AC, etc through the controller and/or your phone when the controls, if individual, would be literally no more than 3 steps away. Too many failure points in the chain for my liking and no redundancy in most of the systems.


Personally, it would really irritate me to have to cut a trip short because the touch pad failed and I couldn't charge batteries or turn on the heat, but that may be just me.


I am sure there are those that have not have issues as we always hear more about problems than success, but I would like to hear what benefits would overpower the potential risks in such systems.


Yep, I know this is a bit incendiary, but I also think it would be very informational to some of us.

[Boxster1971]

Just saw this on YouTube today - the "Insane DIY Home Automated Van - Welcome to Smarty Van". Totally automated van with integration of some Sprinter functions. Looks similar to forum member @avanti home automation efforts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbZcyWUx9Uo

[@Michael]

A good topic.

I am having trouble understanding why it is desirable to run the lights, fan, furnace, ceiling fan, water pump, water heater, furnace, AC, etc through the controller and/or your phone

As is happening with automobiles, where knobs and buttons are going away, making simple things like turning down the radio or turning up the A/C are touchscreen & distract one from driving. I'll avoid buying those cars as long as possible.

My van has early generation multiplex system for controlling lights, operated by mechanical buttons that send digital signals to the multiplex controller. It's a good compromise - any of the lights can be operated from multiple points around the van without 3-way or 4-way switches and bundles of copper running all over the van. It also has a Bluetooth interface, which I've found to be useless. It's been completely reliable - likely because it's a fairly simple system controlled by well-tested firmware on reliable microcontrollers and IC's.

But I would not want the lights to be on a touch screen - too many touches to do a simple thing like flips the lights, which we do regularly, by feel & in the dark.

It also has separate control panel for the Truma, no remote control for the fan or A/C, mechanical switches for the pump and awning, and for some reason a completely separate mechanical switch for the bathroom light (doh!). Some of that would be better served by a unified touch screen of some sort. Having the Truma, roof fan and A/C on a single graphical interface would be nicer than in three separate places, two of which are up in the ceiling where my wife can't reach them, and each of which has a completely different, confusing, non-intuitive interface.

I've done a whole lot of custom electronics & added a custom touch screen - nearly all of which is oriented toward monitoring, not automation. I like knowing the temperature of my fridge & status of my batteries & whether it's hotter than heck in the van when I'm out hiking 5 miles from the van (because I forgot to open the vent fan), whether the solar is going to top off the battery while I'm out hiking, etc. I also appreciate being able to use my phone app to monitor tanks in real time levels while dumping and filling - especially when filling.

[jjrbus]

An RV is a large assembly of parts bouncing down the highway waiting for the most inopportune time to fail. Why make it worse with advanced technology?? Especially with the issues people have getting common well known repairs done. Does not compute! I am not against new ideas and have TPMS a real blessing. But it is a separate system and I would not want it incorporated into a centralized system. If I have issues with it I can throw it out and buy a new one.

Of course if you are tech savvy and can repair a printed circuit board on the side of the road with aluminum foil and a bobby pin different story.

20 some years ago I had issues with an Onan generator and would not take one for free. Been using Honda's ever since. The portables are a pain but one has never cost me a trip or a $1500 repair!

I have had my 02 Chevy express 5.7 going on 3 years I have had 2 issues, one did not throw a code and the current one showing an intermittent misfire code which the shop cannot find a cause for, it is intermittent and would not happen while the shop had it. Took me a while but I bumbled my way through the first problem, camshaft position sensor and will have to do the same with this one, leaves me missing the simplicity of my Toyota RV. [IMG][/IMG]

[peteco]

Originally Posted by jjrbus

An RV is a large assembly of parts bouncing down the highway waiting for the most inopportune time to fail. Why make it worse with advanced technology?? Especially with the issues people have getting common well known repairs done. Does not compute! I am not against new ideas and have TPMS a real blessing. But it is a separate system and I would not want it incorporated into a centralized system. If I have issues with it I can throw it out and buy a new one.

Of course if you are tech savvy and can repair a printed circuit board on the side of the road with aluminum foil and a bobby pin different story.

20 some years ago I had issues with an Onan generator and would not take one for free. Been using Honda's ever since. The portables are a pain but one has never cost me a trip or a $1500 repair!

I have had my 02 Chevy express 5.7 going on 3 years I have had 2 issues, one did not throw a code and the current one showing an intermittent misfire code which the shop cannot find a cause for, it is intermittent and would not happen while the shop had it. Took me a while but I bumbled my way through the first problem, camshaft position sensor and will have to do the same with this one, leaves me missing the simplicity of my Toyota RV. [IMG][/IMG]

Having the coolant thermometer on top of the radiator in plain view is the ultimate in simplicity; don't need no dang wires to cause problems

https://www.ebay.com/itm/226066105283

Agree with all here; as technology advances sometimes it gets too far ahead, or unnecessarily ahead of what is needed. Ideally there would be a simple backup system in place for when the main monitor/control system fails. But that adds complexity and cost.

[booster]

Originally Posted by peteco

Having the coolant thermometer on top of the radiator in plain view is the ultimate in simplicity; don't need no dang wires to cause problems

https://www.ebay.com/itm/226066105283

Agree with all here; as technology advances sometimes it gets too far ahead, or unnecessarily ahead of what is needed. Ideally there would be a simple backup system in place for when the main monitor/control system fails. But that adds complexity and cost.

Yep, and run it on ethanol instead of ethylene glycol so it you do it stuck you can just drink the radiator coolant to amuse yourself.

[GeorgeRa]

We just came back from great trip to Cape of Disappointment in Washington State. Absolutely great place to visit, but disappointing from a different perspective – our Eberspacher diesel heater. Temperature went down to below 50 at night so for morning breakfast I tried to turn the heater – control panel EasyStart Timer (EST) showed “no signal”. We had a small electric heater which helped. Next morning the same story – “no signal”. A short manual recommended to check the Airtronics heater fuse, it was OK. I didn’t remember how to get into the Diagnostic section of EST and there was no internet coverage.

We got home and I started to read loads of threads regarding “EST – No Signal”, great, I wasn’t alone. While reading these volumes I must have been using no publishable language about German Logic of Eberspacher, I think the Eberspacher heater in the garage was listening. Got back to the van to read the fault list on EST and found the heater was working again and no fault listed, it got scared of being possibly replaced with US made LPG heater with local logic of two wires connection to a thermostat. So, my concussion is to read loudly Eberspacher manual to get the unit getting scared and fixed by itself.

Adding another layer of centralized control panel could cause death by frustration to both, the owner and the Eberspacher heater.
When I built our van I paid attention to ease of troubleshooting, most of my key electrical circuits are on individual labeled CBs. Perhaps a centralized system with a completely automated troubleshooting capabilities is the way of the future but we are still far from it, I couldn’t get into diagnostic section of my heater because I didn’t have and Troubleshooting book feom Eberspacher. Electronics tend to be very reliable but software and electrical wiring need to be very robust especially wiring in the mobile application. A not working heater can ruin a trip.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

We just came back from great trip to Cape of Disappointment in Washington State. Absolutely great place to visit, but disappointing from a different perspective – our Eberspacher diesel heater. Temperature went down to below 50 at night so for morning breakfast I tried to turn the heater – control panel EasyStart Timer (EST) showed “no signal”. We had a small electric heater which helped. Next morning the same story – “no signal”. A short manual recommended to check the Airtronics heater fuse, it was OK. I didn’t remember how to get into the Diagnostic section of EST and there was no internet coverage.

We got home and I started to read loads of threads regarding “EST – No Signal”, great, I wasn’t alone. While reading these volumes I must have been using no publishable language about German Logic of Eberspacher, I think the Eberspacher heater in the garage was listening. Got back to the van to read the fault list on EST and found the heater was working again and no fault listed, it got scared of being possibly replaced with US made LPG heater with local logic of two wires connection to a thermostat. So, my concussion is to read loudly Eberspacher manual to get the unit getting scared and fixed by itself.

Adding another layer of centralized control panel could cause death by frustration to both, the owner and the Eberspacher heater.
When I built our van I paid attention to ease of troubleshooting, most of my key electrical circuits are on individual labeled CBs. Perhaps a centralized system with a completely automated troubleshooting capabilities is the way of the future but we are still far from it, I couldn’t get into diagnostic section of my heater because I didn’t have and Troubleshooting book feom Eberspacher. Electronics tend to be very reliable but software and electrical wiring need to be very robust especially wiring in the mobile application. A not working heater can ruin a trip.

I got a quick response from the Eberspacher support group with recommendation: my B8 sensor was wired to D2 instead of to the EasyStart Timer directly, my mistake. After rewiring my EST displayed “no signal” again, this time I enter diagnostic page which pointed to no connection to Hydronic D5. I disconnected the EST connector, connected again, eureka, it worked. I looked closer to the electrical connectors end noticed some gray corrosion deposits. I cleaned all contacts, added some dielectric grease and hope this issue has been resolved. EST temperature displays actual temperature.

[Sleeping Dog]

The real reason that most vehicles are going to central touch pads in cost. It's cheaper for the manufacturer. Touch pads communicate with a control unit and that provides two points of failure for whatever device that is controlled in addition to the device itself. It is also more difficult to trouble shoot.

Someone mentioned lighting control, that frustrated me so much I went through the van and placed small LED pucks for area light. No more turning a light on only to find out that is at light house level of brightness when your beloved is trying to sleep.

If I were doing a home build, I'd likely go back to switches and relays for system controls, but I suspect that I'd quickly find out that the subsystems require the touch screen/controller regime.

[avanti]

I suppose I should chime in here,

This thread has been conflating two completely different issues: automation and centralization. Booster's original message (or at least its title) was explicitly about centralization; i.e., having a common controller that manages everything and thus provides a single point of failure. I couldn't agree more with his critique of this approach. It is insane to build any complex system this way. There is a post somewhere on the Home Assistant discussion group of a guy who decided to control his house's furnace exclusively via HA. He was sitting is a freezing house begging for help because his HA Raspberry Pi had failed and nothing worked in his house. For every reply trying to help him, he got numerous ones telling him he was out of his mind for building such a system. These posters were correct.

A while ago, I posted a message on the topic of redundancy, which was a very high priority in the design of my van's systems. It gives numerous examples of how I approached this in the context of sophisticated automation. Rather than repeating all of this, here is the link to that message:
https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...tml#post147209
Basically, the approach is to control each system with a simple controller that is capable of being controlled either by a human or by an automation. So, for example, many home automation lighting controllers look and act just like old-school physical switches, but they also have network connectivity to permit automation systems like of Home Assistant to "push" them as peers to humans. This is the best of both worlds, and does not reduce reliability in any way. My van works this way, not for lighting, but for all mission-critical systems, such as heating, AC, etc.

Automation is another matter entirely. I am (obviously) a big proponent of properly-designed automation both in homes and in RVs. There are many tedious but important tasks that traditionally depend on a detail-oriented and somewhat technically-inclined owner to perform. This includes monitoring voltages, SOC, temperatures, fuel levels, among other things. Not only are these chores tedious and requiring of technical understanding, but they usually require skill at multiple different user interfaces, each with its own style and quirks. As a result, except when the van's owner is someone who understands and enjoys such minutiae, these important tasks typically go undone, often with unfortunate consequences. A good automation can provide the needed vigilance every time, with no lapses of attention, often logging valuable data that helps with monitoring the performance of systems over time. In addition, the ability to monitor and control important systems remotely (say, being able to turn on a battery heater from the beach when an unexpected cold spell is approaching your van which is parked in your driveway back home), is very reassuring and can be a lifesaver when the unexpected arises. And this is not to mention convenience. Yes, it is only a few steps from your bed to your Fantastic Fan, but if you need to close it because it has gotten chilly in the middle of the night, well, that first step can be pretty miserable.

Finally, I would like to question the assumption that modern electronics reduces reliability. In general, I do not believe that this is true. For example, does anyone really believe that electronic ignitions are less reliable than old-school distributors and points? Complex, consumer-grade entertainment system in modern cars may sometimes be troublesome, but the critical engine systems have become remarkably reliable due to modern electronics. The same can be true of van systems, if they are done properly.

The moral is: Avoid centralization like the plague, but don't be afraid of well-designed, redundant, distributed automation systems. They will make your life more pleasant, at will not leave you stranded.

[booster]

I agree with pretty much all of what Avanti says above.


Automation doesn't have to be something that does everything as then you get into the centralization again, but within the systems themselves it can be and is very useful for all of us. For instance, with the simple use of the a Victron battery monitor I was able to automatically control the alternator charging and by adding a switch have a redundant manual method. Shore chargers and solar can also do this for their charging but often hard to bypass to manual. It is very hard to manually monitor lithium charging on the fly if you don't want to charge to 100% all the time.



I have no issue at all, only praise, for a central monitoring system that keeps track of things and alerts you to failure points like Avanti's turn on the battery heaters. Heaters can be a tougher control thing due to the heater on point is higher when you need to charge than when you are storing. Monitoring should be separate from controlling though except to provide input.



The discussion of modern electronics being more trouble prone than old school will go on forever as I think that you can find examples of both quite easily. Avanti mentioned electronic ignition as an example of better. Perhaps the often heard failure rate of the low end touch panel controls would be an example of the not so good. I have personally lived through the touch screen fiasco on of all things a HVAC air to air heat exchange ventilator on our house. Routine failures at least every 3 months for 18 months until I gave up the warranty and built a two switch, 7 relay, one thermostat controller control for it that has run 24/7 for 4 years now untouched.


A good way to look at electronics and reliability vs cost vs useability is in the industrial machines that tend to use high end PLC controls that trigger mechanical relays. Combination of traditional and old school doing what each does best.


I have always stated and believed that redundancy is one the very top things you can do to your class b to prevent ruined trips. I know Avanti has also. Electronics is one of them and things like two ways to dump tanks is more basic but also very important.


I am sure centralized, fully automatic, controls like Victron on high end yachts work very well and quite reliably, but you still hear of them stuck in far away ports waiting for a Victron tech to show up.


What started this discussion and was mentioned in the first post, I think, is that we seem to be seeing lots of the centralized controls in newer class Bs having issues that leave folks with unusable vans, either at home, or worse on the road. I think this could be called the perfect storm of a poorly designed, non redundant, systems piled on top of low quality electronics that are poorly applied.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

I suppose I should chime in here,

This thread has been conflating two completely different issues: automation and centralization. Booster's original message (or at least its title) was explicitly about centralization; i.e., having a common controller that manages everything and thus provides a single point of failure. I couldn't agree more with his critique of this approach. It is insane to build any complex system this way. There is a post somewhere on the Home Assistant discussion group of a guy who decided to control his house's furnace exclusively via HA. He was sitting is a freezing house begging for help because his HA Raspberry Pi had failed and nothing worked in his house. For every reply trying to help him, he got numerous ones telling him he was out of his mind for building such a system. These posters were correct.

A while ago, I posted a message on the topic of redundancy, which was a very high priority in the design of my van's systems. It gives numerous examples of how I approached this in the context of sophisticated automation. Rather than repeating all of this, here is the link to that message:
https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...tml#post147209
Basically, the approach is to control each system with a simple controller that is capable of being controlled either by a human or by an automation. So, for example, many home automation lighting controllers look and act just like old-school physical switches, but they also have network connectivity to permit automation systems like of Home Assistant to "push" them as peers to humans. This is the best of both worlds, and does not reduce reliability in any way. My van works this way, not for lighting, but for all mission-critical systems, such as heating, AC, etc.

Automation is another matter entirely. I am (obviously) a big proponent of properly-designed automation both in homes and in RVs. There are many tedious but important tasks that traditionally depend on a detail-oriented and somewhat technically-inclined owner to perform. This includes monitoring voltages, SOC, temperatures, fuel levels, among other things. Not only are these chores tedious and requiring of technical understanding, but they usually require skill at multiple different user interfaces, each with its own style and quirks. As a result, except when the van's owner is someone who understands and enjoys such minutiae, these important tasks typically go undone, often with unfortunate consequences. A good automation can provide the needed vigilance every time, with no lapses of attention, often logging valuable data that helps with monitoring the performance of systems over time. In addition, the ability to monitor and control important systems remotely (say, being able to turn on a battery heater from the beach when an unexpected cold spell is approaching your van which is parked in your driveway back home), is very reassuring and can be a lifesaver when the unexpected arises. And this is not to mention convenience. Yes, it is only a few steps from your bed to your Fantastic Fan, but if you need to close it because it has gotten chilly in the middle of the night, well, that first step can be pretty miserable.

Finally, I would like to question the assumption that modern electronics reduces reliability. In general, I do not believe that this is true. For example, does anyone really believe that electronic ignitions are less reliable than old-school distributors and points? Complex, consumer-grade entertainment system in modern cars may sometimes be troublesome, but the critical engine systems have become remarkably reliable due to modern electronics. The same can be true of van systems, if they are done properly.

The moral is: Avoid centralization like the plague, but don't be afraid of well-designed, redundant, distributed automation systems. They will make your life more pleasant, at will not leave you stranded.

I agree, but “well designed” and executed are critical. Examples: MB DEF injection exhaust control was badly designed and terribly executed in contrast to old Volvo’s Lambda oxygen sensors in the seventies; Eberspacher multiple temperature sensors options with vaguely written instructions versus Chinese Diesel heaters with one sensor and no need for instruction. If Eberspacher would design their thermostat – EasyStart timer with additional level of automation by instantly switching to Diagnostic page or event better to diagnose the problem in case of failure instead forcing customers to multiple, difficult to remember key strokes we would have a working heater on our last trip. The source of failure was the EST electrical connector which I could have easily correct if I knew it, the connector is inside the overhead cabinet.

I designed and installed sofa-bed automation recently, only regrets I have why I waited so long, we love it. It works great but in case of failure it would take no time to switch to a manual mode.

I think the level of automation is rather limited in a camper van, space/water heating temperature control, refrigerator control, sofa bed day <> night changes, battery charging, perhaps self-leveling are good candidates for automation, I am not sure what else.

At home I use HomeSeer with Alexa automation for lights, doors, etc. For example, opening of garage doors automatically turns on Sprinter parking assist photocell with warning beacon or open garage doors are indicated by flashing LED on all light switches at home, but this is home, not a camper van.

[JohnnyFry]

I agree: the old KISS principle is still valid and a lot of electronic controls on an
RV, especially a class B, is the invitation to a ruined vacation or weekend...and for what? So you can turn on the lights from your phone, and start the water pump from your bed? Even though my entire career was centered on technology, I sometimes long for an old engine with a carburetor and coil ignition...at least I know I have a prayer of getting it going if it goes south out in the boondocks

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

A good way to look at electronics and reliability vs cost vs useability is in the industrial machines that tend to use high end PLC controls that trigger mechanical relays. Combination of traditional and old school doing what each does best.

During my university times I studied pneumatic control systems still used in HVAC or chemical factories. Simple and reliable. I still remember how a pneumatic amplifier works

[RobRyan]

In Australia they seem to take this centralisation to an extreme As well as a touch pad, you can use your phone or voice controls. I know in some European Motorhomes they do not have microwaves just an oven. They like to physically cook something on holidays. Having back up systems just in case the keypad fails would be a good idea

[hbn7hj]

If I had a central control screen/computer I would have a spare. A few years down the road and you may not be able to get a replacement.

Same with Starlink. Once obsolete they no longer supply the routers that contain the power supply. Carry a spare.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFry

I agree: the old KISS principle is still valid and a lot of electronic controls on an
RV, especially a class B, is the invitation to a ruined vacation or weekend...and for what? So you can turn on the lights from your phone, and start the water pump from your bed? Even though my entire career was centered on technology, I sometimes long for an old engine with a carburetor and coil ignition...at least I know I have a prayer of getting it going if it goes south out in the boondocks

I agree, sometimes we forget why we camp.

[booster]

I just watched the video of SpaceX landing the super heavy booster back onto the launch pad.


I guess that would have had to be kinda/sorta automated???

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

I just watched the video of SpaceX landing the super heavy booster back onto the launch pad.


I guess that would have had to be kinda/sorta automated???

How about the new driverless taxi.