Camping on the street

[mojoman]

Here in northern CA you can dump your trash, burn it, empty your tanks anywhere, if you are "Homeless".
Its allowed here since the environmentalists and local governments have listed them as off limits to the same laws we have to abide. Every year our Earth Day events consist of many volunteers cleaning up tons of trash left at these camps all over our forests and shore line.

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

This is a world that I have zero experience with and these stories about systemic police violence disturb me.

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

As I mentioned before I don't believe this is a systemic problem but what is the criteria for when situations like the one you encountered get elevated attention or concern?

Most people do want to cooperate but the assessment of cooperating is usually in the eyes of the person with the badge (unless there is another person recording the situation - i.e. camera.

ClassB4Me, I'm a little confused. In one post you call these stories "systemic police violence (which I addressed in another post as well...) and then you say "I don't believe this is a systemic problem." Would you be kind enough to clarify your thoughts please? They appear to be diametrically opposed.

And as a secondary reply on the "assessment of cooperating" lying with the person behind the badge, you're absolutely correct... and that's by statute, backed up by case law, particularly in CA. What is your concern there?

Just like playing the lottery, your last contact with the police shouldn't have any bearing on your next one. Unless you're a known multiple offender, likely it'll be under completely different circumstances with completely different officers, and probably a different agency. The two contacts would have nothing in common... except you.

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by booster

It had to do with the deputies zooming up behind you with the brights on, right up to your bumper, and dropping back and doing it again and again. As soon as you would react by slowing down or moving over (as you had no idea if it was police or drunks), you were likely to get stopped for erratic driving...

...The fact that it was taken care of so well and so professionally, really reinstated our positive feelings for the deputies and police in general. If they had not addressed the issue, I am sure it would have been a different story, so I truly understand why some folks have very negative feelings about police.

Booster, what you describe is misconduct on the part of the officers and good management on the part of the administration of that department. And you handled it exactly the way it should have been handled. Well done.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by hepcat

ClassB4Me, I'm a little confused. In one post you call these stories "systemic police violence (which I addressed in another post as well...) and then you say "I don't believe this is a systemic problem." Would you be kind enough to clarify your thoughts please? They appear to be diametrically opposed.

Sure.... Please Note: I'm not looking for a back / forth discussion on this topic. I initially shared a one sentence statement about a person who lost their life while bookdocking 'in stealth' in what appears to be a residential neighborhood.

• I do not personally believe this is a systemic problem. I have had no personal bad encounters with police officers
• Others do believe it is a systemic problem and it saddens me if this is true
• Others have cited personal stories of systemic abuse therefore, I am open to listening and understanding

I believe deeply you can judge a society by how it treats those who have fewer resources and have less power to push back when treated unfairly.

For many, living in vans (legal or illegal) is a response to not being able to afford local housing or being suddenly displaced and not wanting to live in a shelter.

For many on this forum, it is an affordable luxury for those who want to experience Class B RVing and like the notion of bookdocking. I want to understand and be sober about the chances of being surveilled by local police while bookdocking (stealth or open).

https://youtu.be/lpoF9QQuyb0
https://youtu.be/4Shl_wk_a_s
https://youtu.be/COoEwT8G4GQ
https://youtu.be/pM8ac-pa2X0
https://youtu.be/UW1eer1PY0E
https://youtu.be/D8lb8aX05XI
https://youtu.be/QUk37Kq96KQ
https://youtu.be/B25hlVRNjEI

In closing, I come here to understand what other Class B owners experience while using their RV.

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

Sure.... Please Note: I'm not looking for a back / forth discussion on this topic. I initially shared a one sentence statement about a person who lost their life while bookdocking 'in stealth' in what appears to be a residential neighborhood.

In closing, I come here to understand what other Class B owners experience while using their RV.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

According to the Star Tribune article, the incident in question occurred in an industrial area. The man who was killed wasn't 'stealth' camping, he was just living in an old class C motorhome with a plywood door, and apparently was broken down. He'd been living between parking lots or on the street in front of businesses there for some time apparently. I'm not sure there's much that's meaningful that you can glean from his situation that fits "stealth camping in a b-van." At least I'm not coming up with anything.

Since you've asked though, I'll share my experience with you. I've traveled extensively (25,000 miles) the past two years in my B-van (and another 14,000 miles in my Kodiak chassis class C) literally from New Hampshire to San Diego and from Iowa to Portland, OR down to Dayton, NV and back to Iowa, and many other places in between with my two Cavalier King Charles spaniels, mostly "stealth camping" in various locations when I'm on the road, and it's been my experience that I've had no encounters with law enforcement at all, except at Border Patrol check points, and absolutely no negative encounters with any other folks either.

I hope that helps.

[booster]

I think my question to everybody would be this.

If you saw an older, or newer, camper van, or just van, pull up on your residential street, and nobody get out of it, would you immediately say "stealth camper" or would you wonder if it is someone watching to see if someone leaves for work or whatever. The street we live on gets nearly no traffic, and everyone knows the vehicles of all the neighbors, I think, and there are never cars parked on the street overnight, so I can't imagine that you wouldn't get a visit from the sheriff, or question from a neighbor.

We get a weekly crime a prevention newsletter from the sheriff's office, and there are always, and I mean nearly every week, calls about suspicious vehicles listed, many times with an arrest when checked out by the deputies. They always also constantly tell everyone to report any vehicle that looks out of place or suspicious in the neighborhoods, so they can be checked out by the deputies. Maybe we just live in a paranoid area

With the history of no vehicles on our street, I don't know how comfortable I would be with a strange vehicle sitting in front of the house all night. I very likely would go out and ask if they needed something, and if they were decent folks trying to sleep for the night, tell them to put it in our driveway to save themselves hassles.

[hepcat]

Good question, Booster.

I suspect that this van parked in your neighborhood



or this van:



would likely get a very different reaction than this van:



or this one:

[booster]

Your pictures and suggested reactions bring up more, maybe even more interesting questions.

If the vans that look like vans get a more negative reaction than an obvious RV, why is everyone trying to go stealthy and look like a plain old van?

Or is it just a way to intentionally try to get around the laws about street camping that may be in effect in any given jurisdiction? If so, do those folks that do this have any justified complaint if they do get hassled?

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by booster

Your pictures and suggested reactions bring up more, maybe even more interesting questions.

If the vans that look like vans get a more negative reaction than an obvious RV, why is everyone trying to go stealthy and look like a plain old van?

Or is it just a way to intentionally try to get around the laws about street camping that may be in effect in any given jurisdiction? If so, do those folks that do this have any justified complaint if they do get hassled?

And your reply brings up interesting points as well.

The whole purpose of living in a van is to live "off the radar" and as expense-free as possible... etc etc etc. The whole issue of 'stealth' as discussed by van-dwellers really doesn't have much validity. You're only as stealthy as those folks who are looking are willing to ignore you, regardless of what you drive. There are many casual ways to know that a van is occupied. And yes, if folks are trying to beat local ordinances, they'll likely get the attention of someone at some point.

Anything out of place is noticeable. Eggs, sunny-side up on your breakfast plate with bacon is beautiful. If you walk into a restaurant with a dozen people eating breakfast, you likely won't even notice them on their plates. Those same eggs on your Brooks Brothers three-piece suit during a meeting with your banker would likely attract attention pretty quickly.

The best way to hide in plain sight is to make sure that whatever it is that you're driving blends in with the scenery wherever you are. A $150k Sprinter B-van could be just as out of place in a low-rent liquor store parking lot as the first van in my last post would be on your street.

[mlts22]

Originally Posted by booster

I think my question to everybody would be this.

If you saw an older, or newer, camper van, or just van, pull up on your residential street, and nobody get out of it, would you immediately say "stealth camper" or would you wonder if it is someone watching to see if someone leaves for work or whatever. The street we live on gets nearly no traffic, and everyone knows the vehicles of all the neighbors, I think, and there are never cars parked on the street overnight, so I can't imagine that you wouldn't get a visit from the sheriff, or question from a neighbor.

We get a weekly crime a prevention newsletter from the sheriff's office, and there are always, and I mean nearly every week, calls about suspicious vehicles listed, many times with an arrest when checked out by the deputies. They always also constantly tell everyone to report any vehicle that looks out of place or suspicious in the neighborhoods, so they can be checked out by the deputies. Maybe we just live in a paranoid area

With the history of no vehicles on our street, I don't know how comfortable I would be with a strange vehicle sitting in front of the house all night. I very likely would go out and ask if they needed something, and if they were decent folks trying to sleep for the night, tell them to put it in our driveway to save themselves hassles.

That is pretty common, actually. I have been in neighborhoods where if anyone sits in the area for more than 5-10 minutes, the neighbors and/or the police will be coming up to question their presence there. Thankfully, an honest answer tends to get them heading off. Same neighborhood actually had armed officers standing guard around the elementary and middle school as school was letting out, with an array of stop strips (which were able to be activated via remote control) in the one road in/out. It was odd seeing kids being picked up by their parents, driven less than a block to their homes.

Made me feel old too... I actually walked to and from school.

[booster]

Originally Posted by mlts22

Made me feel old too... I actually walked to and from school.

Me too, from age 6 (about 4 blocks) through high school (a bit over a mile), although sometimes we had cars near the end.

[Davydd]

We street camp a lot but usually at a friend's or relative's home. Otherwise we stay in obvious RV acceptable spots like town parks, parking lots, casinos, Walmarts and Cracker Barrels with permission. I don't think I would pull up and just park in any neighborhood.

Parked and slept here in Queens Village, NYC for three nights.



Sleep here maybe a half dozen times per year in La Crosse, WI.

[InterBlog]

IMO, the biggest challenge while traveling is the absolute impossibility of knowing every local ordinance that may impact what can and cannot be done with a Class B, and thus drawing police attention for THAT reason - not because of generalized "suspicion".

Houston is a prime example. Its large vehicle ordinance is so severe that you are absolutely not allowed to pull a Class B over to the side of a residential street (and "residential" is interpreted broadly) for the purpose of reading a map. If you have a medical condition and you need to pull to the side of a street to attend to that (e.g., fetch your asthma puffer), that is also not allowed. A mechanical break-down is not even a defense to prosecution.

I know these things because I once pulled to a Houston curb to read a map. Had not exited my Class B, still had the engine running, and the police were on me within five minutes.

I've lived in greater Houston for decades and never knew about this ordinance until that moment. It's easy for me to see how a visitor to this city could interpret that behavior as blatant and unwarranted police harassment - they want to write tickets for momentary map-reading?! Yes they do. And they will.

I bust the ordinance because I'm more than 8 feet tall (high-roof Sprinter). The real question is, how many other jurisdictions throughout America have similarly impactful ordinances that Class B-ers only find out about the hard way, sometimes via police conflicts that appear excessive relative to the "crime" that is being committed?

***
Sec. 26-96. - Large vehicle restrictions.

No person shall park or cause to be parked or permit to remain parked any large vehicle upon any street or highway in any residential district. It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the large vehicle is:

(1) Actually in the process of being loaded or unloaded;
(2) Parked while the driver or operator is performing a service visit; or
(3) Leased or borrowed and parked for a period of not more than 72 hours.

(Ord. No. 07-464, § 7 (Exh. B), 4-11-07; Ord. No. 08-442, § 3, 5-14-0


Sec. 26-2. - Definitions.

Large vehicle means a "motor vehicle" or a "trailer," as defined herein, that is in excess of eight feet in height at the highest point on the vehicle or trailer or in excess of 22 feet in length. To the extent that any motor vehicle is coupled or otherwise attached to a trailer, then the motor vehicle and trailer shall together be deemed as constituting a single large vehicle if the combined length of the motor vehicle and trailer exceeds 30 feet.

***

[avanti]

Wow.
Do you happen to know the legal definition of "park" in Houston?

NYC has very precise definitions of the terms "stop", "stand", and "park". They are all different, and they are used very carefully in signage and the corresponding enforcement.

[ClassB4Me]

IMO, the biggest challenge while traveling is the absolute impossibility of knowing every local ordinance that may impact what can and cannot be done with a Class B, and thus drawing police attention for THAT reason - not because of generalized "suspicion".

The municipalities who write these overreaching laws may think they are being smart but are slowly eroding the trust from citizenry (who normally by default support the police, support the troops, etc.).

Militarized Police Overreach Review

Father Fights for His Dead Son's Reputation - Against Police Overreach
https://youtu.be/eCZPQUOcvng
https://youtu.be/Ymg8dp2LaPA

No Problem with Police Overreach?
https://youtu.be/sSXi6Oq49ro
https://youtu.be/fLMGsnX1HUs
https://youtu.be/VAFmtsv_30k
https://youtu.be/wBPk39BxaDs
https://youtu.be/shxim8Lgkds
https://youtu.be/cMAxM_rDfpw
https://youtu.be/SWtd6pDFWHI
https://youtu.be/HQVBRS7YmUY
https://youtu.be/vmRegPdxxnA

I don't think you have to be a pacifist or 'liberal' to believe events like this should not occur in our country and there is a problem.

[mojoman]

If you want live comfortably around police, move to a small community where the police knows everyone. I moved from Sacramento which turned into a 3rd world country with the amount of crime, to a small coastal town of 10K where the police recognize who you are quite friendly and leave you alone, unless you are known criminal. Sacramento used to be that way when I grew up many years ago. You can't have it both ways and expect police to be comfortable around thousands of known criminals in their domain.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by mojoman

If you want live comfortably around police, move to a small community where the police knows everyone. I moved from Sacramento which turned into a 3rd world country with the amount of crime, to a small coastal town of 10K where the police recognize who you are quite friendly and leave you alone, unless you are known criminal. Sacramento used to be that way when I grew up many years ago. You can't have it both ways and expect police to be comfortable around thousands of known criminals in their domain.

The problem with this is that small towns have few effective checks and balances. As a result, local government (including the police) is either great or awful depending on the personalities of the individuals in charge. The chief of police in a small town has a lot of discretion and power. If he or she is reasonable and wise, everything is great. Sadly, this isn't always the case.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

The problem with this is that small towns have few effective checks and balances. As a result, local government (including the police) is either great or awful depending on the personalities of the individuals in charge. The chief of police in a small town has a lot of discretion and power. If he or she is reasonable and wise, everything is great. Sadly, this isn't always the case.

You talkin 'bout Rosco P Coltraine ???

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

The municipalities who write these overreaching laws may think they are being smart but are slowly eroding the trust from citizenry (who normally by default support the police, support the troops, etc.).

Father Fights for His Dead Son's Reputation - Against Police Overreach

No Problem with Police Overreach?

I don't think you have to be a pacifist or 'liberal' to believe events like this should not occur in our country and there is a problem.

Are you once again suggesting that the problem IS systemic? NONE of the videos you linked to are related... different states, different departments, different people, different incidents... and all over a significant period of time. One of the problems with viewing all of those at once is that they have immediacy when you view them... and listing them together suggests that there are links... links that don't exist other than that they discuss acts of misconduct by officers from various agencies. There is no causality links among them, as much as you'd like to confirm your biases by pointing to this string of videos. Frankly, what would be MUCH more telling is how each of those departments dealt with the incident(s). I'd be very much interested in how you think this can be solved.

Since you're concerned with the "militarization" of police agencies, let me give you a little history. On 9/11/01, civil law enforcement nationally became tasked, for the first time in the modern history of the country, with responding to incidents that are planned and executed with military tactics, training, and equipment. For the past 15 years, police agencies nationwide have trained extensively about how to deal with terrorist incidents... and training for other kinds of incidents such as civil unrest took a back seat. We now have police agencies being run by administrators who have no pre-9/11 experience.

Abraham Maslow's quote is appropriate here: "I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail." Unfortunately, what you're seeing is PARA-military police officers responding to military incidents without the group discipline of the military; as training for police officers teaches them to be independent thinkers and take action on their own. Equipping them with military gear without having the tactics and discipline IS a problem; one that we're facing nation-wide. There's a reason you don't want cops filling a military role, and vice-versa. Their training is, of necessity, very different. But that's the way it's happening right now.

Last, the cops don't pass the laws... they just enforce them. And incompetent city councils and mayors pass unconstitutional and incompetent laws and hire incompetent law enforcement administrators. If you've got a crooked or incompetent law enforcement agency, you've likely got a crooked or incompetent city council above them. Unfortunately, we as voters and citizens get exactly the kind of government we deserve. When we're uninformed voters, we get dumped on.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by avanti

Wow.
Do you happen to know the legal definition of "park" in Houston?

NYC has very precise definitions of the terms "stop", "stand", and "park". They are all different, and they are used very carefully in signage and the corresponding enforcement.

"Park or parking means the standing of a vehicle, whether occupied or not,..."

I might stand corrected on the mechanical issue. Apparently a mechanical break-down does not fit the definition of "park" even though it is not called out as an explicit defense to prosecution on the large vehicle ordinance. So a broken-down Class B might be able to avoid that particular ticket, although the officer with whom I interacted was not interested in learning about the mechanical condition of my vehicle. Whether it was disabled or not did not make any difference to that officer, who was intent on writing a ticket either way.

"whether occupied or not" removes the defense to reading a map, fetching a medication, or waiting for someone who is not actively climbing in at that exact location (sometimes people wait for school children but can't get close to the school because of the lines, so they are not "parking" for the purposes of picking someone up if they are geographically separated from the ultimate location of pick-up). If you're sitting in your vehicle with the engine running, it's still a violation.