Biodiesel - MB Sprinter Warranty

[bobcat66]

With the increasing number of biodiesel pumps using greater than B5, some as high as B15 and soon to be B10 in Minnesota, what are Sprinter folks doing to mitigate engine damage, fuel filter clogging or poor performance issues?

B15 is currently found in Utah, the state with the most number of National Parks. Minnesota has mandated B10 effective July 1, 2014 and then B15 effective May 1, 2015. Illinois requires that diesel fuel contain a minimum of 5% biomass and the pumps read; "Contains a minimum of 5% biodiesel"...so you don't know what you are getting.

BTW, the Mercedes warranty does not cover engine repair if anything over B5 has been used.

[obgraham]

They've beat this issue around over on rv.net and also on irv2. General consensus is that you use what's available, minimize the use of anything over B5, keep close eye on oil levels, etc., and then let the chips fall. Goodness knows, there's lots of Sprinters around these days.

MB is being a bit obtuse, unwilling to commit, but it seems that problems from fuel are not widespread so far, and also that MB would have a hard time rejecting claims if you just use clean fuel from well known companies.

My rig isn't here yet, but my plan is to keep a log -- date, location, quantity, brand of fuel, B%. There's nothing more I can do about it.

[Davydd]

That's about right. Keep close eye on oil levels means keep it close to topped off and don't let it run low is what I understood. This is what was transcribed from a Mercedes Benz representative at Advanced RV Fest and Open House.

You can use bio-diesel B-5 or less. You can also use B-20 diesels but you have to be conscious of oil levels.

[bobojay]

You know on a couple of other forums I'm on, people are actually cancelling their new RV orders with Sprinter chassis because of this issue being that the issue is a BIG ongoing concern on these forums.
Misinformation is being given by the so-called "experts" as to anything over B5 causing major engine damage just by running one tank full.

Never fails to amaze me the naivete of some of these folks that believe all the b$%&^%t.....

[booster]

Originally Posted by bobojay

You know on a couple of other forums I'm on, people are actually cancelling their new RV orders with Sprinter chassis because of this issue being that the issue is a BIG ongoing concern on these forums.
Misinformation is being given by the so-called "experts" as to anything over B5 causing major engine damage just by running one tank full.

Never fails to amaze me the naivete of some of these folks that believe all the b$%&^%t.....

I don't know that I would go that far with it. I will say the jury is still out on this one, as I have seen no hard evidence to real world testing or problems, nor have I seen any testing that says it is OK. MB is stating that their LAB TYPE testing shows a potential problem. I think it is premature to guess either way right now. The "experts" on both sides of this are guessing.

I will point out that the worriers have been correct on some of these things in the past. Lead free gas caused several years of problems with burned valves before putting in hardened exhaust seats became the norm. E10 gas also caused issues with corrosion and breaking loose debris until the technology and materials caught up. The change to SM rated oil with reduced zinc, which was said to be backward compatible, cost many hotrod, small engine, motorcycle folks engines until they finally went back to the old mix for old and race cars, small engines, etc.

There are precedences to look at this from either way.

Personally, I would probably wait a year or two if possible. If not, and I had to get a diesel (not just MB but all brands). I would be trying to get a hold of some of the labs that test stuff like this independently, like a university automotive engine lab. It will be interesting to see what the heavy users of diesel do. Fedex, UPS, etc.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by bobojay

You know on a couple of other forums I'm on, people are actually cancelling their new RV orders with Sprinter chassis because of this issue being that the issue is a BIG ongoing concern on these forums.
Misinformation is being given by the so-called "experts" as to anything over B5 causing major engine damage just by running one tank full.

Never fails to amaze me the naivete of some of these folks that believe all the b$%&^%t.....

So are you claiming that the statement that MB guidelines disallow biodiesel concentrations greater than B5 constitutes "misinformation"?

or

Are you including the engineers who designed the Sprinter in the list of 'so-called "experts"' that you deride?

[bobojay]

Originally Posted by avanti

So are you claiming that the statement that MB guidelines disallow biodiesel concentrations greater than B5 constitutes "misinformation"?

or

Are you including the engineers who designed the Sprinter in the list of 'so-called "experts"' that you deride?

What I'm saying is that the forum "experts" and alot of others are misinterpreting what MB is saying. Making too big of a deal out of the statements on the forums that one tankful of more than B5 is going to damage the engine. One tankful is not going to do anything harmful to the engine. It's continuous use that causes the damage. Just like continuous use of the non-compliant 229.51 required oil is going to damage the DPF immediately. Sure 229.51 needs to be used, but a couple thousand miles in an emergency is not going to do any long term damage there.

In any case, MB is going to have to change their requirements to the country they are selling in, not the other way around. Especially now that their 2 biggest euro van competitors now allow up to B20 in their diesels.

[booster]

I guess the question would be, "what if you lived in a state that mandated B20 so 50% or more of your fills were with B20"? Several of the questions on other boards were from folks that were looking at higher than B5 states, IIRC.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

I guess the question would be, "what if you lived in a state that mandated B20 so 50% or more of your fills were with B20"? Several of the questions on other boards were from folks that were looking at higher than B5 states, IIRC.

Exactly!

[Davydd]

Colonel Jessup: You can't handle the truth!

Mercedes Benz has weighed in on it. Be cognizant of your oil levels and you should have no problems. Balancing your fills is just prudence, not a requirement.

Do you think a warranty is going to cover a gas engine if you abuse your engine? Dream on. Read the fine print of your warranties. They all have cover your ass clauses.

Until you start hearing on the forums of B owners having issues with B20, damage and warranty problems it is a Chicken Little issue. It ain't going to happen, IMO.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Mercedes Benz has weighed in on it. Be cognizant of your oil levels and you should have no problems. Balancing your fills is just prudence, not a requirement.

This is new information. Can you give us a pointer to a written source for this? It would be very valuable.

[Arlo]

Here is a PDF titled: Biodiesel Information for Mercedes-Benz Vehicles 2014 Edition. "B20 blends are generally not approved and should be only used on a very limited basis and only if unavoidable." As when passing thru MN, IL, CO, etc. I guess.

http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalA..._Brochure5.pdf

[booster]

The note that Davyyd references about checking oil level if using non approved fuel is there, but just take a look at their list of other potential problems that they attribute to anything above B5.

My guess is that the checking of the oil level will allow you avoid a catastrophic engine failure due to oil dilution, but it will not prevent the other items in the list of consequences, which is pretty extensive.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Arlo

Here is a PDF titled: Biodiesel Information for Mercedes-Benz Vehicles 2014 Edition. "B20 blends are generally not approved and should be only used on a very limited basis and only if unavoidable." As when passing thru MN, IL, CO, etc. I guess.

http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalA..._Brochure5.pdf

Yes, this is the latest information I am aware of. This certainly amounts to a prohibition on regular use (as, it seems, will soon be unavoidable in some states). That's why a citation for DavyDD's information would be so valuable.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

The note that Davyyd references about checking oil level if using non approved fuel is there, but just take a look at their list of other potential problems that they attribute to anything above B5.

My guess is that the checking of the oil level will allow you avoid a catastrophic engine failure due to oil dilution, but it will not prevent the other items in the list of consequences, which is pretty extensive.

The issue is not the list of things that MB says can go wrong. It is whether or not in light of these issues MB says that regular usage is or is not prohibited. The discussion as I understand it is about warranty coverage.

[Davydd]

Read my first post in this thread. It came from Mercedes Benz and I heard it with my own ears. What I quoted was what Advanced RV quoted in transcribed overview notes from a recording I assume. My personal note extemporaneous at the time was this.

B-5 biodiesel no problem. B-20 and less it is critical to maintain oil level.

It seems they know a properly maintained engine will be OK. They don't like it obviously. If push comes to shove they could ill afford not to resolve the issue to the satisfaction of customers. The catastrophic option is they would pull out of the North American market. I'm not going to worry about that.

[booster]

The doc says they typically do not cover issues related to unapproved fuel. Then they say anything above B5 is not approved. That would be for at least everything on the list, which look to be longer term failures than oil dilution would cause. The list is very important because it shows how many things you could be on the hook for. It looks to be pretty carefully written legalspeak to give MB an out on warranty, if they choose to use it.

[gerrym51]

until somebody has a warranty issue because of higher than B5 biodiesel there is no way to tell

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

until somebody has a warranty issue because of higher than B5 biodiesel there is no way to tell

Absolutely correct, and why I said originally that the issue is not settled either way at this point. It could be a non-issue, or a fairly expensive one. The fact that MB has a high end reputation to protect would lean toward them honoring warranties, but we will see. As I said, watch to see what the commercial users find out.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by booster

Absolutely correct, and why I said originally that the issue is not settled either way at this point. It could be a non-issue, or a fairly expensive one. The fact that MB has a high end reputation to protect would lean toward them honoring warranties, but we will see. As I said, watch to see what the commercial users find out.

this might be pertinent

http://brucegarrett.com/brucelog/6630


i assume this has already been posted-but since you got me looking into this

http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/DigitalAsse ... chure5.pdf