Behold the Laveo Dry Flush

[avanti]

Originally Posted by ilmor

Urine can be emptied on the ground. I wouldn't do this too close to streams.

Not in any constituency that I have ever heard of. In most places, you can't even dump grey water.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by avanti

Not in any constituency that I have ever heard of. In most places, you can't even dump grey water.

So, I am boondocking away from a campground in an area where hikers, backpackers, tent campers, etc. are doing the responsible thing and pooping into a hole and covering it up away from any water sources. They are typically peeing in the bushes and not digging a hole is they are just going to pee. I have a bottle with a couple of days worth of pee which I can bury in a hole and cover it up or just pour it into the bushes where I would normally pee anyway. Assuming it is not an area where you required to collect your human waste and carry it out for disposal rather than dispose of it as noted above, I don’t recall any type of rules that would not allow you to dispose of your pee where you are boondocking.

If there are rules against it then I stand corrected...

[avanti]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

So, I am boondocking away from a campground in an area where hikers, backpackers, tent campers, etc. are doing the responsible thing and pooping into a hole and covering it up away from any water sources. They are typically peeing in the bushes and not digging a hole is they are just going to pee. I have a bottle with a couple of days worth of pee which I can bury in a hole and cover it up or just pour it into the bushes where I would normally pee anyway. Assuming it is not an area where you required to collect your human waste and carry it out for disposal rather than dispose of it as noted above, I don’t recall any type of rules that would not allow you to dispose of your pee where you are boondocking.

If there are rules against it then I stand corrected...

CFR Title 43. Public Lands: Interior
Subtitle B. Regulations Relating to Public Lands
Chapter II. BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR
Subchapter H. RECREATION PROGRAMS
Part 8360. VISITOR SERVICES
Subpart 8365. Rules of Conduct
Section 8365.1-1. Sanitation.

On all public lands, no person shall, unless otherwise authorized:
(3) Drain sewage or petroleum products or dump refuse or waste other than wash water from any trailer or other vehicle except in places or receptacles provided for that purpose.

So, in general, nothing but "wash water" can be dumped. In many places (such as developed campgrounds), even that is forbidden. There are many other local rules that further strengthen this policy.

Cathole latrines are still permissible in many places for backpackers (although increasingly, as you suggest, "carry out" rules are being implemented). The difference between this and RV dumping has to do with dispersement. There is a very big difference between a single-use cathole and dumping a larger collection of liquid.

The general policy for single-use cathole latrines in the backcountry is:

catholes are to be dug 6 to 8 inches deep at least 200 feet from running water, camp, trails, and drainages.

200 feet is a long way. Obviously, this rule is intended for solid waste. As far as I know, peeing is left unaddressed under these circumstances. But, again, dispersal is the key.

[MsNomer]

My understanding is that pee is best on bare rocks instead of into bushes. It irritates me when men pee right onto the trail.

[gregmchugh]

Okay, that comes from the BLM. Is there a similar rule for National Forests?

What is the difference between wash water and grey water in these rules?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Okay, that comes from the BLM. Is there a similar rule for National Forests?

Yes. The Forest Service doesn't allow dumping waste water of any kind:

CFR Title 36. Parks, Forests, and Public Property
Chapter II. FOREST SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE
Part 261. PROHIBITIONS
Subpart A. General Prohibitions
Section 261.11. Sanitation.
The following are prohibited:
(d) Failing to dispose of all garbage, including any paper, can, bottle, sewage, waste water or material, or rubbish either by removal from the site or area, or by depositing it into receptacles or at places provided for such purposes.

As far as I know, you will find essentially similar rules on virtually all federally-administered public lands, and most municipalities as well.

What is the difference between wash water and grey water in these rules?

I don't know the legal definitions, but it seems pretty clear that neither contain pee.

[gregmchugh]

Yes, no pee, but it seems that the BLM allows disposal of wash water which is what grey water from the sinks and shower is. I could see that water containing food waste would be undesirable as it can attract animals.

Just trying to decipher the regulations which is not always easy...

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Yes, no pee, but it seems that the BLM allows disposal of wash water which is what grey water from the sinks and shower is. I could see that water containing food waste would be undesirable as it can attract animals.

Just trying to decipher the regulations which is not always easy...

We have seen several places lately, often campgrounds, where the specifically mention any water with food residue, both for the public spigot areas and woods and such. Similar around even remote picnic areas that have a pump for water. Dishwashing seems to be a big problem with vermin.

[GeorgeRa]

To add a little humor, different country different views on man’s peeing. Many moons ago I arrived to Munich train station during the October beer festivity. I was walking with many other folks on a wide railway platform and large German fellow was walking towards us, heavily buzzed, happy, singing, with lederhosen flap dropped he was covering with his fertilizer a six feet wide path. No one cared, we all move to sides. Have I ever been in October in Munich, yes.

[ilmor]

Oh I see. It's ok to pee in a bush but not ok to pee in bottle first then pour it into the bush. I see the difference.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by pasusan

Interesting... My question is *where* do you empty them?

Two general options:

(1) In restrooms where they are available. If you read posts by people who love their segregating toilets, you will hear them claim that pure urine, uncontaminated by feces and in minimal contact with oxygen, has "no" odor. I would not go that far, but I would say that it has "little" odor (I was surprised at how little). I have a reusable shopping bag that is a good fit to our two jugs and I only use the bag for those jugs (no general shopping) so that I can carry them discretely to a toilet.

Amusement factor: It's a Cracker Barrel branded bag similar to the one below. Cracker Barrel is our main off-grid overnight haven when we do our long haul trips, and of course we patronize the restaurant, typically getting our breakfasts there before hitting the road (we drive 6,000 miles round trip from Houston TX to northeastern Nova Scotia every year). Discretely dumping those jugs in a Cracker Barrel restroom toilet creates *orders of magnitude less odor* than the average patron having a post-country-fried-turkey BM, so I have no guilt about that.

So we use Cracker Barrel a lot, and for short trips when we return home, we use our own toilets. If we happen to hit a campground, we use their toilets.

(2) We disperse (dump) widely on undeveloped land when we are near it. I have 5 acres that can easily handle segregated urine for short periods of time (e.g., a few weeks of occupancy). A typical response to that idea is, "But you didn't put it in a septic system!" Many people don't understand how septic systems work - they don't treat urine, which is a pass-through commodity in that context. Septic systems break down feces and fatty products such as cooking oil residues. After passing through the chambers with the wastewater stream, urine basically flows unimpeded into the septic field.

The land can easily handle dispersed urine. In fact, while researching this topic, I learned a new word: "peecycling", LOL. There are studies being done regarding the feasibility of segregating and pasteurizing urine for direct application as a fertilizer. TL;DR on that link:

"Urine makes up an estimated 1% of a centralized municipal wastewater stream, but it accounts for about 80% of the nitrogen and 55% of the phosphorus in wastewater .... “After urine is sanitized [by pasteurizing], it’s considered a Class A biosolids product, which we land-apply with a custom-built, gravity-fed liquid applicator in spring or fall at two local farms,” Nace explains. “The farmers are very eager to have it. They’re very happy with its effect on hay — it’s a very good fertilizer.”"

[InterBlog]

I'm sorry if this is too explicit / TMI for some people, but I think women need to know about this option. Six years I was an off-grid vanner who struggled with black tank management until finally, Canadian federal COVID-19 quarantine forced me to expand my thinking. I'm very glad that it did.

Preamble - I've never met a woman who places her bottom in direct contact with a public toilet seat. We just don't do it. We either line the toilet seat with toilet paper or those commercial tissue liners if a dispenser happens to be present in the stall. Or, we crouch over the toilet, hovering above the seat, but not touching it for sanitary reasons.

This procedure is essentially a variant on the theme of hover, except it's your own wet bath toilet that you are hovering over rather than a public toilet.

1. So, you crouch over the toilet facing forward in the usual manner, with the medical urine collector sitting in the bottom of the toilet as shown in the image below.
2. Reach between your legs and grab the handle of the device, guiding it and pressing it to your body exactly where it needs to be.
3. Do your business.
4. In the event of some inaccuracy in the stream, it will run down the outside of the orange container into the toilet bowl. It will not contact your guiding hand because the handle is sitting proud of the container.
5. Cap and rinse off the outside of the container as needed. Flush the small amount of wash water into the black tank.
6. Store the container beside the toilet or in another preferred location.

It is an idea. It's not for everyone, but if you try it and find that it's not right for you, then you are only out seven bucks for the orange urinal.

[MsNomer]

Interblog, even though my bag 'n bucket works well, I may make the large investment in your device. There are times it could be handy.

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

To add a little humor, different country different views on man’s peeing. Many moons ago I arrived to Munich train station during the October beer festivity. I was walking with many other folks on a wide railway platform and large German fellow was walking towards us, heavily buzzed, happy, singing, with lederhosen flap dropped he was covering with his fertilizer a six feet wide path. No one cared, we all move to sides. Have I ever been in October in Munich, yes.

I walked out of the hotel Sunday morning in La Paz and there were men in suits peeing all over the streets and sidewalks. Maybe they'd been drinking all night?

In Germany, Austria, Yugoslavia in 1978, there were structures along the road—a simple wall about head high. Watch your step and hold your nose on the other side.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

In Germany, Austria, Yugoslavia in 1978, there were structures along the road—a simple wall about head high. Watch your step and hold your nose on the other side.

Those things are still common in India. I once saw one built into the wall around a fancy public building. Big step up from "go anywhere", I guess.

In rural Cambodia it is extremely common for farms to have wooden "bridges" that extend half-way over a stream, terminating in a little squat-area.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by avanti

... in India...
...In rural Cambodia ...

...in Alaska.

I'm hooked on Alaskan DIY building shows (I like my television to be educational). A lot of people live in dry cabins in Alaska. Even if they have pit toilets on site, I know that they are not making seven separate trips a day outside (Arctic temps, mosquito season, blizzards, over 100 inches of rain annually, etc.). They are managing human waste in a variety of more efficient ways - they have to be.

So there are potentially things to be learned from that source, except that television is not really the place where they get elaborated explicitly. So I look for clues and indications in the various TV segments.

I am surprised that we have not moved farther beyond the slop buckets and chamber pots of my youth (some of my extended family grew up without indoor plumbing - we were not well-off financially). Or maybe we have, and that information is just slow to get around.

[MsNomer]

I was born into a home without plumbing or electricity. One grandmother was afraid of flush toilets and never used one. Her house never had a hint of malodor. It’s obviously not rocket science.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by avanti

Those things are still common in India. . .
. . . In rural Cambodia . . .

. . . in France. My nephew was living in Lyon when we visited him in 2018. His apartment was near a park along the river where they regularly held weekend music concerts. He said the smell of urine on the streets and grass along the river was overpowering after a typical Saturday nights event.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Those things are still common in India. . .
. . . In rural Cambodia . . .
. . . in France.

He said the smell of urine on the streets and grass along the river was overpowering after a typical Saturday nights event.

...in our National Forests...
I was recently out gathering firewood at a NF dispersed camping site. I was maybe 20 yards into the woods when I suddenly realized that I was completely surrounded by piles of poo. Dozens of them.

The rules that are cited earlier in this thread may seem draconian--leaving no room for "common sense". But, clearly, in these situations common sense simply can't be relied upon. You have to draw a bright line. It is kind of like building codes: They are full of anal rules that seem silly in many situations and one is tempted to think that strict enforcement is ridiculous. But making exceptions is a slippery slope. Carefully-chosen rules strictly enforced save lives.

[TygerMark]

Originally Posted by avanti

...in our National Forests...
I was recently out gathering firewood at a NF dispersed camping site. I was maybe 20 yards into the woods when I suddenly realized that I was completely surrounded by piles of poo. Dozens of them.

Bear scat can resemble human scat. Was there any toilet paper too?

[avanti]

Originally Posted by TygerMark

Bear scat can resemble human scat. Was there any toilet paper too?

Oh yeah!

Not an error I would make.