B-van price tops $200k

[hepcat]

I believe that this is the first time I've ever seen a B-van price top $200k.

2018 Airstream Interstate Lounge Ext at LazyDaze RV

[booster]

Originally Posted by hepcat

I believe that this is the first time I've ever seen a B-van price top $200k.

2018 Airstream Interstate Lounge Ext at LazyDaze RV

You need to talk to ARV, they could probably get you to $300K

[Ron J. Moore]

Then consider it is Lazy Daze RV....superb reputation, ha! Ron

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by Ron J. Moore

Then consider it is Lazy Daze RV....superb reputation, ha! Ron

The issue isn't who is selling it; it's that the window sticker topped $200k.

I'm grateful for folks who have enough credit and income to spend $2000/mo on a depreciable asset, because in fifteen to twenty years they depreciate enough for regular people like me to be able to buy them.

As a reality check, my 1700sq ft, 1960 vintage mid-century modern, true brick construction Usonian-style, five BR, two 1/2 bath ranch house on a half-acre of ground has an assessed value of about $160k.

[avanti]

I suspect that the B-van market is going to split into two segments: An "adventure van" segment designed with cost in mind, and a "Luxury touring coach" segment, with the "cost be damned" mind set that appeals to current ARV customers.

[BBQ]

.

There is a demographic segment of people
who are retiring with a million dollar+ home that is all paid for.
They are downsizing to a smaller townhouse/condo.
So what is $200K to them?
You cannot take your money with you.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

I suspect that the B-van market is going to split into two segments: An "adventure van" segment designed with cost in mind, and a "Luxury touring coach" segment, with the "cost be damned" mind set that appeals to current ARV customers.

I agree, you somewhat see the same thing now in class A's.

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by avanti

I suspect that the B-van market is going to split into two segments: An "adventure van" segment designed with cost in mind, and a "Luxury touring coach" segment, with the "cost be damned" mind set that appeals to current ARV customers.

I think you're probably on-point there. The Travato 59G and new Hymer offerings are aimed at the price-point buyers.

Originally Posted by BBQ

.

There is a demographic segment of people
who are retiring with a million dollar+ home that is all paid for.
They are downsizing to a smaller townhouse/condo.
So what is $200K to them?
You cannot take your money with you.

The question is how long it'll take until that market is saturated. I'd venture that those folks who have Prevost coaches are looking to continue traveling, but in a smaller coach as they age... and I suspect it's probably those folks who the really upscale market in B-vans is aimed at.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by hepcat

::
The question is how long it'll take until that market is saturated.

::

Dance while the music is on.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

I suspect that the B-van market is going to split into two segments: An "adventure van" segment designed with cost in mind, and a "Luxury touring coach" segment, with the "cost be damned" mind set that appeals to current ARV customers.

I believe this will be the case as well. With a home median price of close to $190K - $200K for a van will not be affordable for most folks.

This B-class market is a strange beast. Outside Vans from Hood River conversion cost can be around $300K, with their Spartan décor, seems as well suited for a manufacturing plant, buyers are still there and are not bothered by the use of denim for insulation. Than ARV, well build, nice décor also in $300K range with resale closely linked to custom design likely not representing the main street. There are many in the middle and there is Camping World Hymer’s Sunlight V1 with cardboard ceiling for less then $60K.

So here is my pet question, where is a van à la VW Westfalia? - which could fit the lower part of the B-class binary distribution but is not here yet.

In 2013, we look the B-class market and stopped at Airstream, I will never forget the sales pitch – “you need to take it for a ride to Seattle (from Portland)”, there was no mention about camping, she was selling the touring coach, the likely upper site of the binary distribution as quoted.

George.

[gerrym51]

you can build airstream interstates at rvdirect

they are under motorhomes not clas b's

[slim4511]

I think the typical ARV customer is more interested in designing/purchasing a coach that fits their specific needs and not so much on the price tag.

[InterBlog]

There's no detail given on that listing, but I'm assuming that unit is NOT being sold with Airstream's proposed lithium option. In their marketing outreach and polling, I believe they were forecasting that such an option would add about $40K to their existing MSRPs.

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by slim4511

I think the typical ARV customer is more interested in designing/purchasing a coach that fits their specific needs and not so much on the price tag.

That's kind of the difference between building an architect-designed home and buying a spec house from a contractor.

In a custom job, the sky's the limit, and you'd expect it to be. But this is the first time I've seen an off-the-shelf build for over $200k.

[jrobe]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

So here is my pet question, where is a van à la VW Westfalia? - which could fit the lower part of the B-class binary distribution but is not here yet.

I agree that $200k is a lot for a van that will only last for limited mileage. On the other hand, people get frustrated when most of these Class B's cost $100k+.

It is pretty easy to get to $100k when you start out with a $40k+ van and then add appliances, furnaces, water heaters, AC, sofas and beds, TV's, tanks, batteries, generators, etc. and then try to make at least a little profit on it. The bottom line is that Class B's are going to be expensive.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by jrobe

I agree that $200k is a lot for a van that will only last for limited mileage. On the other hand, people get frustrated when most of these Class B's cost $100k+.

It is pretty easy to get to $100k when you start out with a $40k+ van and then add appliances, furnaces, water heaters, AC, sofas and beds, TV's, tanks, batteries, generators, etc. and then try to make at least a little profit on it. The bottom line is that Class B's are going to be expensive.

In 2013 we couldn't find anything equivalent to our old Westfalias so bought the passenger Sprinter 144" WB van and converted to a camper. Top notch equipment like diesel furnace, diesel marine water heater, marine electrical components, aluminum framing bed and cabinets, compressor fridge (no generator or AC) cost me $20K. Total cash out was around $65K. The most expensive was my design work, in production this cost would be distributed.

[hepcat]

That's really interesting, George. Can you tell us more about your process? How the design was done, where you sourced the components, and how you went about the actual build?

I looked at your album... and your coach is a brilliant build. Well done.

[jrobe]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

In 2013 we couldn't find anything equivalent to our old Westfalias so bought the passenger Sprinter 144" WB van and converted to a camper. Top notch equipment like diesel furnace, diesel marine water heater, marine electrical components, aluminum framing bed and cabinets, compressor fridge (no generator or AC) cost me $20K. Total cash out was around $65K. The most expensive was my design work, in production this cost would be distributed.

That seems right. Sportsmobile charges about the same for labor as any component you add. For example, $20,000 in components would cost about $40,000 including labor. Come to think or it, those percentages were about the same when I have built my homes in the past (50% materials, 50% labor). A DIY Class B builder and a DIY home builder can save quite a bit of money if you place no value on your time. I am a big DIYer but I also have spent $10,000 in woodworking tools and equipment to do it.

So for a $45,000 van, $20,000 in components (without AC, generator, etc,) and $20,000 in labor, it would be a $85,000 van ($65,000 for a DIY van). Of course,most of the companies discount off MSRP 10-15% or so. Then, of course the RV sales companies add their percentage cut. It becomes pretty clear how the price tags end up north of $100,000 and even then the profit margins are pretty tight for the companies. Now start adding higher ticket items like lithium battery systems, solar panels, TV systems with antennas, etc. and the price goes up fast.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by hepcat

That's really interesting, George. Can you tell us more about your process? How the design was done, where you sourced the components, and how you went about the actual build?

I looked at your album... and your coach is a brilliant build. Well done.

Thank you for your comments. Our goal was to have a Westfallia like layout with all windows around. We could not find one so we built one. It was a long project interrupted for way over a year by building the house with moving and the total of over 7 months travelling in EU. So, it took about 2 years’ total time to build. My direct involvement was perhaps a few hours per day in a couple of days per week. About 3/4 of my time was spent at the PC; CAD, BOM, ordering. I am retired.

Now, we have what we want, it is a high quality conversion, it works, and it was fun to do. But, we were very happy with our Westfalias (1977/1985) quality and functionalities, unfortunately we could not find anything close to them in equivalent todays cost of $50K. Being older, we were willing to spend more for toilet, space and water heater, but not willing to spend for white leather or shiny woodwork. With bulk of my time being spent on the actual design, not on the assembly, this cost could easily be distributed over many units so I should be able to buy a well-built van for $65K including profit, don’t forget I paid retail prices for all components.

I recently visited Camping World so I took a peek at the Hymer Sunlight V1, the shock was a wavy cardboard looking like ceiling, first I thought it was a ceiling protection for shipping. Right next to it was a Winnebago Minnie Winnie for about the same price, price was comparable but quality was not, there is something wrong with the B-class prices in NA.

We started with 2013 Sprinter, 144” WB passenger van. It is no LPG powered conversion, only diesel and electric. The end weight came to be just under 7800 lbs. of the fully loaded van, including us.

Some built details:

Appliances:

Space heater Espar/Eberspacher Airtronics D2 – best space heater we ever had, potent and quiet inside and outside the van.

Water heater – Isotemp Slim 15l marine water heater and the Espar Hydronic D5 combination. We have 750W heating on shore power and diesel heating via D5 off the grid. The 17K BTU of D5 is heating 4 gal. of Isotemp Marine Heater, from cold in about 5min to a very warm water and in 11 min. to 175 deg. F. The D5 is loud on the high level, about the same as a typical LPG RV water heater, but is much quieter on the low level.

Origo Stove – AC electric and alcohol burners with glass lid, alcohol is great for off the grid situations but tends to be slow, but no need for Lithium batteries and induction stove. Alcohol stove are far more popular in the boating world because of safety, have I had LPG on board an LPG stove would be great if spark generated by lithium batteries

SMEV sink with folding faucet and glass lid.

Fridge – Isotherm Cruise 85, great fridge, surprisingly capable for packing. The electronic Isotherm Smart Controller and the new fan were significant improvements in efficiency and noise. The Danfoss compressor operates with variable speed since installation of the Smart controller.

Microwave – powered by shore or inverter power.

Electrical:
All wires are marine tinned high count stranded wires with sealed crimp connectors.

Bluesea AC/DC 30A load center with circuit breakers.

1000 W Magnum Inverter charger, charger used often, inverter not so much.

Magnum control panel with SOC screen.

300W Morningstar Inverter – a great fanless high efficiency inverter, used often.

Shore power by 30A Smart Plug connection.

House battery remote disconnect system by Intellitec.

Batteries – 230 Ah AGM.

PV panels – 300W Monocrystalline, back connected, high efficiency.

Morningstar MPPT charge controller with control panel.

All LED lights.

Ceiling mounted LG LED projection smart TV with pull down 35” screen. Sitting in the swiveled front seats with ottoman toilet the van becomes a theater.

WEMA grey and fresh water tank level gauges.

External:
Fiamma awning 65L

Thinsulate insulation, it is sound and heat insulator, absolutely love it.

Maxxair 7X000 roof vent with remote.

RV CR Laurence openable window with screen over the galley.

Furniture and cabinetry:

As in any conversion most of time is spent designing the cabinetry, this was my case as well. With the exception of the overhead cabinets all cabinets are attached to the floor, so for the strength reasons it required strong cabinetry. My options were combinations of ½” to ¾” plywood or aluminum framing with light weight filler panels and this is what I picked. The final decision’s swaying factor was no need to finish neither aluminum frame being already anodized nor the HDPE plastic panels. Wood or plywood would require finishing of surfaces and edges. For the primary filling/fronts material I chose HDPE (High Density Polyethylene), a very popular material in the boating industry to substitute wood.

For the aluminum framing material, I selected 8020 company for extrusions and mounting hardware. I ordered a lot of hardware from McMaster Carr. All aluminum framing was designed on CAD and machned at the factory. Majority of HDPE was CNCed. The bulk of my time went to design but it made this route made it easier to receive pretty much kitted material for the high quality and a very rapid assembly.

Rock & Roll Sofa - 54” x 76” bed – one of the best feature in our DIY, the negative aspect of not being a permanent sleeping place is easily compensated by the great amount of living space in the sofa position and the speed of changing from the sofa to bed and the bed to sofa in about 15 seconds each. I tried to purchase the Rock & Roll Sofa from EU but the shipping costs were very high.

Both front seats swivel – can’t imagine not having them.

Double fabric with Sunbrella being the inner one all windows cover with 8020 guide hooks for the sides and the rear, fast to deploy, refreshing colors.

Interior storage:
About 10 cubic foot in left and right overhead cabinets – very sufficient storage for 2 of us = yes
Over 15 CF under sofa bed accessible from front and back = yes
Pull-out pantry with 4 shelves = yes.
3 drawers in the galley, plus other large storage spaces in the left lower cabinets = yes.

Utilities:
Pressurized city water hook-up.
Shurflo 3 GPM/55 PSI water pump.
SS 14 gal. grey water tank.
SS 12 gal. fresh water tank., pressurized fill-up.
Thetford cassette toilet with 5 gal. waste and 4 gal. electric flush capacities.
Transom external shower with long hose shower head and hot water.

For more pictures during the build please see this - https://goo.gl/photos/AZnG63iwMr9u6zLw8

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by jrobe

That seems right. Sportsmobile charges about the same for labor as any component you add. For example, $20,000 in components would cost about $40,000 including labor. Come to think or it, those percentages were about the same when I have built my homes in the past (50% materials, 50% labor). A DIY Class B builder and a DIY home builder can save quite a bit of money if you place no value on your time. I am a big DIYer but I also have spent $10,000 in woodworking tools and equipment to do it.

So for a $45,000 van, $20,000 in components (without AC, generator, etc,) and $20,000 in labor, it would be a $85,000 van ($65,000 for a DIY van). Of course,most of the companies discount off MSRP 10-15% or so. Then, of course the RV sales companies add their percentage cut. It becomes pretty clear how the price tags end up north of $100,000 and even then the profit margins are pretty tight for the companies. Now start adding higher ticket items like lithium battery systems, solar panels, TV systems with antennas, etc. and the price goes up fast.

I think these calculations are not as easy. The engineering cost of design should be distributed on the product line, the assembly labor is per unit. So, my work, with bulk going to the design - not assembly should be a fraction of labor per unit.

From another perspective, in 1977 WV Westfalia (no lithium, no solar, no toilet, no heat) was $7K, Volvo was $7K; in 1985 Westfalia was $20K, Volvo was $20K, in 2013 Volvo is $50K, a missing in action Westfalia should be $50K + heat $1K, + hot water $1K, + cassette toilet $1K is $53K or approximately $65K, so where is it?