Arv c

[GeorgeRa]

I just saw the review of a new ARV C-class. Nice RV, a little pricy but what is this THING hanging rather low, could be an ARV “Onan” A little too exposed for my mild off road driving.

https://www.businessinsider.com/adva...er-van-2020-11

[eric1514]

Airtabs? Really?

[mumkin]

Looks to me like a second alternator... or underhood generator in Roadtrek speak. It mentions in the article that all that battery power will be charged by the "alternator" without added information to that.

In RT's first models, it was exposed like this, but too many hit it on things like curbs what with the low Promasters. I expect that ARV will be adding an engine guard like most of us have put on the Roadtreks.

Great ideas as ARV always provides, but certainly pricey. I guess it is an Ekko for the wealthy. lol ...who apparently don't cook since I see no cooktop

[Snowy]

Originally Posted by mumkin

...who apparently don't cook since I see no cooktop

ARV typically puts a portable induction cooktop in a drawer designed for that cooktop - you can then use it inside on the counter or outside. I suspect that is why you didn't see a cooktop in the picture.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Looks to me like a second alternator... or underhood generator in Roadtrek speak. It mentions in the article that all that battery power will be charged by the "alternator" without added information to that.

In RT's first models, it was exposed like this, but too many hit it on things like curbs what with the low Promasters. I expect that ARV will be adding an engine guard like most of us have put on the Roadtreks.

Great ideas as ARV always provides, but certainly pricey. I guess it is an Ekko for the wealthy. lol ...who apparently don't cook since I see no cooktop

Perhaps Chevy and Ford are best for second alternator. I had two on my Ford F350 Diesel mounted without any reduction of ground clearance.

Hitting the low hanging ARV alternator on the road could have some major consequences.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Perhaps Chevy and Ford are best for second alternator.

You can order Transits with dual alternators from the factory (which is what I intend to do). Some people prefer to use the factory location for an aftermarket second alternator in order to avoid dealing with the elaborate OEM power-management system. I see no good reason to do so, though. In either event, you end up with a much cleaner install than is possible with a Sprinter, and Ford's upfitter's guide permits you to take off lots of amps.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

You can order Transits with dual alternators from the factory (which is what I intend to do). Some people prefer to use the factory location for an aftermarket second alternator in order to avoid dealing with the elaborate OEM power-management system. I see no good reason to do so, though. In either event, you end up with a much cleaner install than is possible with a Sprinter, and Ford's upfitter's guide permits you to take off lots of amps.

Cleaner and researched, developed and built by automotive company like Ford, not by a Mom-and-Pop shop.

[Bud]

"(which is what I intend to do)"

Well, one decision has apparently been made. What's next avanti? Maybe a thread? I sure would enjoy it.

Bud

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Bud

"(which is what I intend to do)"

Well, one decision has apparently been made. What's next avanti? Maybe a thread? I sure would enjoy it.

Bud

All in due time...

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by avanti

You can order Transits with dual alternators from the factory (which is what I intend to do). Some people prefer to use the factory location for an aftermarket second alternator in order to avoid dealing with the elaborate OEM power-management system. I see no good reason to do so, though. In either event, you end up with a much cleaner install than is possible with a Sprinter, and Ford's upfitter's guide permits you to take off lots of amps.

Yes - you can get dual alternators on a Transit with the V-6 Eco-boost engine. But they are tied together by Ford's integration. You can take lots of amps from this setup but you will have to use a power conversion device to charge a lithium house battery if you plan to go that route.

Visited Embassy RV this summer where Terry Minix told me they order all their Transits with the dual alternators from Ford. They remove the second alternator and replace it with a Nations unit and Balmar regulator with charge profile for the Lithionics house battery. Terry said they do that because Ford could not offer them a way to isolate the second alternator. They still order the second alternator because all the coolant hoses for the radiator are routed to clear the second alternator on the Ford setup. It makes installing the Nations alternator very straight forward.

The Winnebago EKKO also uses a Balmar regulator to charge the Lithionics battery. I'm not sure what second alternator they use.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Yes - you can get dual alternators on a Transit with the V-6 Eco-boost engine. But they are tied together by Ford's integration. You can take lots of amps from this setup but you will have to use a power conversion device to charge a lithium house battery if you plan to go that route.

Visited Embassy RV this summer where Terry Minix told me they order all their Transits with the dual alternators from Ford. They remove the second alternator and replace it with a Nations unit and Balmar regulator with charge profile for the Lithionics house battery. Terry said they do that because Ford could not offer them a way to isolate the second alternator. They still order the second alternator because all the coolant hoses for the radiator are routed to clear the second alternator on the Ford setup. It makes installing the Nations alternator very straight forward.

The Winnebago EKKO also uses a Balmar regulator to charge the Lithionics battery. I'm not sure what second alternator they use.

Yes, I am aware of Embassy's view on this. I think it is just silly. I see nothing at all wrong with using the Ford setup used as it was intended. You can simply wire as many B2B chargers in parallel to give you whatever you need for your battery bank. The simplicity of lithium charging profiles makes this straightforward. You just have to set up the Ford system properly and arrange to honor the load-shedding signal that the van makes available. As I see it, the Ford system is well-thought-out and is best used as designed. I see no downside.
The Embassy guys are great craftspersons, and do some clever things. But, they have some significant blindspots, IMO.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

I just saw the review of a new ARV C-class. Nice RV, a little pricy but what is this THING hanging rather low, could be an ARV “Onan” A little too exposed for my mild off road driving.

https://www.businessinsider.com/adva...er-van-2020-11

That ARV B-box photo you attached has a monster 12V Delco alternator. This 2016 ARV video explains why they switched from the Nations alternator to the larger Delco unit. The large lithium battery packs they use needed a more capable alternator.

https://youtu.be/XANYxoEF_HY

The Business Insider article covers an ARV B-box with a 48V system, without a large alternator. But you included a photo of another B-box, "ASTEROID OF HAPPINESS", that does have the large 12V alternator. It is featured in this video.

https://youtu.be/vTq0KQN7e-Y

ARV offers a 48V battery system with smaller alternator as seen in this photo from the article that shows the different alternators. 12V on a 4x4 Sprinter on the left, with big 12V alternator clearly visible. The 48V B-box on the right - no big alternator hanging below bumper.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by avanti

Yes, I am aware of Embassy's view on this. I think it is just silly. I see nothing at all wrong with using the Ford setup used as it was intended. You can simply wire as many B2B chargers in parallel to give you whatever you need for your battery bank. The simplicity of lithium charging profiles makes this straightforward. You just have to set up the Ford system properly and arrange to honor the load-shedding signal that the van makes available. As I see it, the Ford system is well-thought-out and is best used as designed. I see no downside.
The Embassy guys are great craftspersons, and do some clever things. But, they have some significant blindspots, IMO.

The down side is you have to use a B2B charger with associated inefficiencies and waste heat they produce. Why do you think Winnebago is doing the same thing on the EKKO by installing a non-Ford alternator and using a Balmar regulator? I looked at the EKKO on-line parts catalog and they are not using a Ford supplied second alternator, just the Ford mounting bracket and tensioner.

https://catalog3d.winnebagoind.com/2021/341175.htm

I agree that Embassy RV has limitations in their designs, especially for toilets.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

That ARV B-box photo you attached has a monster 12V Delco alternator. This 2016 ARV video explains why they switched from the Nations alternator to the larger Delco unit. The large lithium battery packs they use needed a more capable alternator.

https://youtu.be/XANYxoEF_HY

The Business Insider article covers an ARV B-box with a 48V system, without a large alternator. But you included a photo of another B-box, "ASTEROID OF HAPPINESS", that does have the large 12V alternator. It is featured in this video.

https://youtu.be/vTq0KQN7e-Y

ARV offers a 48V battery system with smaller alternator as seen in this photo from the article that shows the different alternators. 12V on a 4x4 Sprinter on the left, with big 12V alternator clearly visible. The 48V B-box on the right - no big alternator hanging below bumper.

So, ARV has two options for alternators, big and small which depends on voltage, correct. Personally, I would stay away from the low hanging one.

[booster]

All the alternator options are very interesting to me, and what direction it all goes in the long term is probably still up in the air and may even be severely altered with the switch of more electrification of the drive systems.


Quite a few years ago, I saw a writeup about an RV system where they used an at the time large alternator and ran it to an inverter that power the existing charger and it seemed a poor way to do it at that time with lead acid because there were much better ways that still are fine with lead acid.


With lithium, however, doing the inverter thing might be better in many cases if done well on the control side and with the right alternator setup.


Wouldn't it be nice if the Transit had the second alternator run off the van controls but running at 48v for instance to the auxilliary power and an inverter and charger of whatever voltage was needed if DC was the goal. I think at least some of the controlled second alternator stuff is an offshoot of the now getting more common 110v power available in the box of pickups for offgrid construction things. Some of the tools like power saws and air compressors can use substantial amounts of power.


With all the voltage cutoffs, float disconnects, temp cutouts and such that were hear about folks putting into lithium systems, being able to have them in only one place on the final charger would probably simplify things a bunch.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

All the alternator options are very interesting to me, and what direction it all goes in the long term is probably still up in the air and may even be severely altered with the switch of more electrification of the drive systems.


Quite a few years ago, I saw a writeup about an RV system where they used an at the time large alternator and ran it to an inverter that power the existing charger and it seemed a poor way to do it at that time with lead acid because there were much better ways that still are fine with lead acid.


With lithium, however, doing the inverter thing might be better in many cases if done well on the control side and with the right alternator setup.


Wouldn't it be nice if the Transit had the second alternator run off the van controls but running at 48v for instance to the auxilliary power and an inverter and charger of whatever voltage was needed if DC was the goal. I think at least some of the controlled second alternator stuff is an offshoot of the now getting more common 110v power available in the box of pickups for offgrid construction things. Some of the tools like power saws and air compressors can use substantial amounts of power.


With all the voltage cutoffs, float disconnects, temp cutouts and such that were hear about folks putting into lithium systems, being able to have them in only one place on the final charger would probably simplify things a bunch.

Dave on the Sprinter forum has been promoting alternator > inverter > charger system for a while (See Graphite Dave / Dave Orton). His objective was to use one charger for house batteries and separation of house and engine electrical systems. I agree that with Li batteries keeping one charging system has value.

https://sprinter-source.com/forums/i...1/#post-996773

If I would be converting another van today, I would likely use a B>B system capable to use multiple DC sources such as alternator and/or PV.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

The down side is you have to use a B2B charger with associated inefficiencies and waste heat they produce.

Fair enough. What you say is true. But:

1) We are talking about an energy-rich environment. The OEM setup can provide more power than is needed as a practical matter, and the efficiency of a good B2B comes close to 90%. So, the only real consequence of the inefficiency is fuel consumption. I haven't done the math, but I would be very surprised if that amounted to anything even worth mentioning, and even then only during the relatively brief charge cycle.

2) As for heat (which is of course the flip side of efficiency), remember that (a) at least where I live, a little extra heat is a good thing much of the year; and (b) this heat is only produced during charging, which only happens when the engine is running and the vehicle A/C is available to quickly remove it. I could be wrong, but I am betting that this is also not an issue worth mentioning.

Why do you think Winnebago is doing the same thing on the EKKO by installing a non-Ford alternator and using a Balmar regulator? I looked at the EKKO on-line parts catalog and they are not using a Ford supplied second alternator, just the Ford mounting bracket and tensioner.

I don't know why Winnebago took that route, but I doubt that efficiency or heat had much to do with it. My guess is that the decision was driven by the ability to purchase a complete system from Balmar, rather than having to qualify a B2B system with the Ford power system (which, remember is fairly new). Other possibilities include simple familiarity, and supply chain and inventory issues. Dunno.

Of course, if one wanted a 48V system such as Volta's, that changes the argument fundamentally.

I am really not trying to be argumentative, it is just that I will be making this decision fairly soon, and I appreciate the opportunity to talk through the logic of the situation.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Quite a few years ago, I saw a writeup about an RV system where they used an at the time large alternator and ran it to an inverter that power the existing charger and it seemed a poor way to do it at that time with lead acid because there were much better ways that still are fine with lead acid.

Dave Orton was an early advocate of this approach over at Sprinter Source. It is obviously inefficient, but quite convenient in a number of ways. Dave made the same argument that I have made concerning B2B -- that the engine has power to spare, so why sweat it? As you say, people were skeptical, but some have now embraced the idea. It is coming to be called the "DC-AC-DC" system. You basically use the alternator to feed an inverter, which you then connect to your coach as if it were shore power.

I am not sure it makes a lot of sense in a clean-slate design, but in a retrofit, it does allow the reuse of an existing converter/charger and its charge profile and other features. And, of course, it inherently limits the load that may be put on the inverter, which helps single-alternator Sprinter owners conform to the MB current takeoff guidelines.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by avanti

. . . I am really not trying to be argumentative, it is just that I will be making this decision fairly soon, and I appreciate the opportunity to talk through the logic of the situation.

Not taking your reply as argumentative. This is a good discussion and you make very valid points on using the Ford supplied dual alternators.

The TransitUSA forum, as you may know, has some good discussions about using the dual alternators. If you are thinking of a Transit build as I was then this is a good source of information.

Here is one long thread from TransitUSA forum that you may find informative.
https://www.fordtransitusaforum.com/...mpervan.79269/

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

So, ARV has two options for alternators, big and small which depends on voltage, correct. Personally, I would stay away from the low hanging one.

Agree. I find it interesting that Advanced RV is now making Class-C motorhome like most of the industry. It is hard to beat a Class-C for RV functional use.

This was a change made by ARV as they can't get the Sprinter vans that they need for their normal builds. If Sprinter van availability doesn't improve I can see ARV building on a Transit platform in the future.

I've said it before on the Sprinter-forum, but if Mercedes doesn't up their game in USA I can see the Sprinter disappearing from our market.